For the advanced seasoned bonsaist...

This again...

OK, I went back and looked at your tree again, and also looked at all the other examples you posted. I will say up front that it is difficult to say for sure that my thoughts were not influenced by first reading Kathy's critique, as I cannot remember if I saw and formed an opinion of your tree before that post.

Here's what bothers me about your tree:

1) There is no real movement. The top of the cascade lies almost directly over the lower part of the cascade. Draw a line from the top of the canopy to the bottom and it is almost vertical. Most of the examples that you posted show a stronger directional movement especially in the lower line.

2) The top line and the bottom line are of roughly equal visual mass. In the examples you posted, either the top or the bottom line are usually clearly dominant...most often the bottom.

Now there are some examples that don't fit...you've posted two that have a very vertical structure (the chrysanthemum in post 152 and the pine, pic #2 in post 153) but in both there is a large amount of top to bottom asymmetry that your tree doesn't have.

As I said, maybe with time your plan will work out but it's not there yet...in my opinion.
 
Temmpted to say.. ehr.. Trees don't grow like that! :rolleyes:
But I won't. I think.
:D
Yeah, and then we would be back at square one, with the uncomfortable feeling of why there are so many examples of bonsai being styled in the same way, which is evident by all those photos I posted a few posts up.
 
This again...

OK, I went back and looked at your tree again, and also looked at all the other examples you posted. I will say up front that it is difficult to say for sure that my thoughts were not influenced by first reading Kathy's critique, as I cannot remember if I saw and formed an opinion of your tree before that post.

Here's what bothers me about your tree:

1) There is no real movement. The top of the cascade lies almost directly over the lower part of the cascade. Draw a line from the top of the canopy to the bottom and it is almost vertical. Most of the examples that you posted show a stronger directional movement especially in the lower line.

2) The top line and the bottom line are of roughly equal visual mass. In the examples you posted, either the top or the bottom line are usually clearly dominant...most often the bottom.

Now there are some examples that don't fit...you've posted two that have a very vertical structure (the chrysanthemum in post 152 and the pine, pic #2 in post 153) but in both there is a large amount of top to bottom asymmetry that your tree doesn't have.

As I said, maybe with time your plan will work out but it's not there yet...in my opinion.
Yes, but what everyone seems to be missing is what you said in your last line of your post. This is all you "opinion"... and that does not mean that it is necessarily correct, and that what I have done is wrong.
I wasn't looking for opinions, I was looking for for where I was wrong. You have said it is confusing and incongruent, and I posted examples of trees with the very same probs.
 
You're right, it's perfect like all of your trees.
 
You're right, it's perfect like all of your trees.
Oh, come now! You don't get to play that card!

You posted two reasons basically for my tree being so confusing. ..

1. Apex and lower branch are very centered

2. Weight is the same throughout the tree.

So, what your saying is that because of these two reasons you feel the tree is wrong. As Kathy put it trees don't grow like this.

Is there then ever a scenario where you could see this happening?

Like in the first case, where perhaps someone took a cascading tree that you can imagine being one... and turn the cascade more towards the viewer? Do you think if someone did so, would it center the apex and the lower branching?

As far as the foliage distribution, what is funny about this is that you say that perhaps in a future time it will look good, that you cannot see it now... are you unable to perhaps imagine what it might look like? I mean, the tree is going to grow, right? And if you are thinking we'll yes but this is a contest to show the tree as you envision it... let us not forget that I was the only one out of everyone in the actual contest that actually did anything more than set main branches. So, to somehow allow for future development of one and not for all is a little...

I understand your "opinion" perfectly... I have said on numerous occasions, that if one does not like the tree... fine. I don't expect everyone or anyone for that matter to like the tree... but this is not what the discussion is regarding... it is about "trees not growing like this", which is what Kathy said... and other than someone's opinion, I have heard not one factual reason for how they do not. Yet, I have heard all kinds of reasons for why Kathy is great and correct... so are we just flying blind here? Supporting what folks say without actually questioning it because they are our hero's or something? Seems like it to me.
 
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Is there then ever a scenario where you could see this happening?

Like in the first case, where perhaps someone took a cascading tree that you can imagine being one... and turn the cascade more towards the viewer? Do you think if someone did so, would it center the apex and the lower branching?
So? Just because someone can do something doesn't mean it will look good. I can take a formal upright and lay it on its side and call it a cascade but I don't think it will get accepted to the National exhibition. And I don't think people here will fall all over themselves praising it and my wonderful vision.

As far as the foliage distribution, what is funny about this is that you say that perhaps in a future time it will look good, that you cannot see it now... are you unable to perhaps imagine what it might look like? I mean, the tree is going to grow, right? And if you are thinking we'll yes but this is a contest to show the tree as you envision it... let us not forget that I was the only one out of everyone in the actual contest that actually did anything more than set main branches. So, to somehow allow for future development of one and not for all is a little...
I see you are slipping back into obnoxious mode. For the past few months you've been better, so this is a shame. I saw it in that response you made a day or two ago (where you were complaining that no one was responding to another one of your trees) but deleted.

My interpretation of the contest was that it was to make a tree that looked good now, not 5 or 10 years from now. If someone can do that without wiring every tiny little branch, even better. The other tree looks better now. Tough.

I understand your "opinion" perfectly... I have said on numerous occasions, that if one does not like the tree... fine. I don't expect everyone or anyone for that matter to like the tree... but this is not what the discussion is regarding... it is about "trees not growing like this", which is what Kathy said... and other than someone's opinion, I have heard not one factual reason for how they do not. Yet, I have heard all kinds of reasons for why Kathy is great and correct... so are we just flying blind here? Supporting what folks say without actually questioning it because they are our hero's or something? Seems like it to me.
Sorry man, I'm not going to get into the game of guessing what Kathy meant. I wasn't there to hear the comment. Trees grow in all kinds of weird, distorted ways. Doesn't mean they'll look good in a bonsai pot. I've given you the reasons I think your tree isn't as good now as the other tree. Others have done the same. Maybe in 5 or 10 years we'll look back and say "wow, he did a good job with that tree."
 
So? Just because someone can do something doesn't mean it will look good. I can take a formal upright and lay it on its side and call it a cascade but I don't think it will get accepted to the National exhibition. And I don't think people here will fall all over themselves praising it and my wonderful vision.


I see you are slipping back into obnoxious mode. For the past few months you've been better, so this is a shame. I saw it in that response you made a day or two ago (where you were complaining that no one was responding to another one of your trees) but deleted.

My interpretation of the contest was that it was to make a tree that looked good now, not 5 or 10 years from now. If someone can do that without wiring every tiny little branch, even better. The other tree looks better now. Tough.


Sorry man, I'm not going to get into the game of guessing what Kathy meant. I wasn't there to hear the comment. Trees grow in all kinds of weird, distorted ways. Doesn't mean they'll look good in a bonsai pot. I've given you the reasons I think your tree isn't as good now as the other tree. Others have done the same. Maybe in 5 or 10 years we'll look back and say "wow, he did a good job with that tree."
Yes, but you have missed an important issue... one can lay a tree down if they want to and call it what ever they want and I will agree this does not mean they are going to get any sort of acceptance or praise... I get this, but what is disturbing to me is that perhaps you and others think this is what I have done!

It is like there is a rule here at the Nut that if you or someone else does not like something it is incorrect. And if someone does not agree with you, they are living in some fantasy world, where only they are the ones that think the work is good. And then out floods the ridiculous notions of how work is not good and how someone can just do some sort of hocus-pocus is as you have said, with your comments of laying a tree on it side and calling it a cascade, as if they are trying to somehow pull the wool over everyone's eyes, and trick them into believing a tree is good, when they because they think they know something couldn't be wrong...

Reality... is as I have said, you are entitled to your opinion, but facts are a different issue... I have posted numerous examples of how the style I had chosen is based I'm actual facts, not opinions. .. the design is in all actuality a very common and very acceptable approach, as is evident from the pictures posted. And you have no actual evidence to prove that it is not other than a personal view that you don't agree with it. As I have said, this is fine... you are entitled to not like my tree... but, what you are not entitled to, is to try and play me off as some sort of idiot who does not know what they are doing, just because you do not agree with what I have said or done. This is wrong!

I have asked repeatedly for someone to show where how I have styled the tree is wrong. To date, no one can do it... so, just because you are not a fan of the work, does not mean you are any more right, than I am perhaps wrong.

As far as convincing folks here my tree is good, I don't need to... my tree came in a dead tie with the individual who won,in the viewer's choice, which accounted for one fourth of the vote, in his neighborhood, with all his friends who were present, and with a ballot box that sat unattended, and with no actual individual making sure that multiple votes were not actually casts... so, who actually knows what the real results would have been in this case.

Now, let's take this into perspective for a moment... this is Sacramento. .. it does not get more Juniper world than this! I mean, this is pretty much the land of Junipers in the states.... If any one of the thousand folks who attended thought I was perhaps trying to pull something over with them, you better believe it would of been known as well as shown... they don't play! And can smell BS a mile away! So, don't tell me because you have been doing Bonsai for how long, and that you have worked with Junipers for how long, that I would for one moment, take your word over anyone in attendance who actually saw the trees side by side and in person.

I had numerous folks who I had never met, who I later realized were actually of importance, as much so if not more, than Kathy... who have been doing bonsai longer than most if us have been alive... they told me that not only was my tree the best, that they didn't even know folks from Florida knew about Junipers, but also invited me to come style trees at their nursery, whenever I was in town.
I don't think they would just offer up this if I was trying to pull some BS.

I have asked a simple question, to show me where my tree is wrong, you cannot do this, voice your opinion all you want, but don't try and pull out some sob story about, how I cannot somehow accept your views and I don't know what I am talking about. Sorry, but pulling rank here. Want to talk trees, fine, but don't try and tell me your view is worth anymore than mine, when you have no actual evidence to back it up.
 
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I like the virt you did, however all that has been done with it is tighten up the design... you have not changed any of the issues anyone seems to be finding confusing.
Actually.. in a design contest, it is all about tightening the nuts where possible right? So effectively, you agree that there was some to be gained just by tightening.

Also, if you look at the other comments in the last say 10 posts, the comment has been made that it was too evenly distributed between top and bottom which, by incidence?, I happened to adjust in the virtual.

As fr 2D vss 3D. I think that this may hold the crunch. If you have a big branch growing towards the viewer, then a big branch to the side and they do not compete for light.. That is odd. You would normally always find a higher branch growing in the direction of the massive lower cascading branch. The absence of this would make me wonder indeed.. Do trees grow like that. I did not really want to keep delving into this, but considering the massive back and forth going on.. Maybe it is just time to accept.. Not everyone agrees?
 
Stacey...it's a wonder anyone responds to your posts at all.

One less now.
 
Actually.. in a design contest, it is all about tightening the nuts where possible right? So effectively, you agree that there was some to be gained just by tightening.

Also, if you look at the other comments in the last say 10 posts, the comment has been made that it was too evenly distributed between top and bottom which, by incidence?, I happened to adjust in the virtual.

As fr 2D vss 3D. I think that this may hold the crunch. If you have a big branch growing towards the viewer, then a big branch to the side and they do not compete for light.. That is odd. You would normally always find a higher branch growing in the direction of the massive lower cascading branch. The absence of this would make me wonder indeed.. Do trees grow like that. I did not really want to keep delving into this, but considering the massive back and forth going on.. Maybe it is just time to accept.. Not everyone agrees?
I would agree that yes, at least for me, the design of a bonsai is all about tightening up the overall image. Which is funny, because on numerous occasions, I have actually made comments here at the Nut, that the very first impression I got from just about every tree I saw at this Sacramento show in my opinion, needed tightening up... that it was my feeling that the trees were all to leggy... but, I understand that a lot of this has to do with the different types of Junipers that were present, and their natural tendency to be rather leggy. With San Jose, and especially seeing that for the most part they really need to be worked with Juvenile foliage, unless grafting, one is able to reduce them quite far down. Seeing you are not concerned with them reverting back to juvenile... With this said, you still need to take into consideration the health of the tree. No point working a tree down to far only to have it die.

These were massive pieces of material, and to be honest really way to big for a one day competition such as this... at least if one is honestly trying to make a sincere approach at doing a tree. On top of this, if one was to go back and look at the final images of the final trees submitted, mine was actually the smallest and tightest design of the lot. So, much so, that I had quite a few comments of how folks were amazed that I managed to compress into such a small package a tree that originated from such large material.
The tree that won, somehow managed to do the opposite and get bigger, not sure how? But hey....

So, yes of course over time the tree could of easily been brought down into a design if one wanted too, that worked with the vertical you did. Would not of been a problem! With the first style, I would have not felt comfortable putting the tree in such jeopardy. Often at these types of events Folks will, But I Have Seen them usually suffer as a result. So, would not do this, no matter what award for winning was presented. This is not good Bonsai.

Now as far as agreeing to disagree, I don't have a problem with this... I have been more than willing to agree to disagree over how one's views and opinions may differ from mine... have said so. But, will not agree with BS about how I am somehow wrong and living in a fantasy world. How, bonsai is done... is how I did bonsai. I constructed my design for the tree based on trees I have seen styled before me and trees that I see being styled to this day. There are a lot of folks out there then, as I have said, who have not received the great enlightenment that they are not I guess supposed to style trees in such a way, and I am guessing that perhaps someone should then tell them?
 
Stacey...it's a wonder anyone responds to your posts at all.

One less now.
Gotta do what you gotta do I guess...
But, don't play this off like it is some one sided event. I understand you views, I respect them, I don't have to agree with them. Neither do you mine... However, just because you feel you are right does not make it so. A lot of what you said can easily be adjusted to the tree and made happen... if I actually owned the tree perhaps I might of taken then into consideration... I probably would have.

But, cannot dwell on should of could of would ofs... I don't own the tree and cannot develop the tree further. As I said, I did the best with what I had, designed a sound tree, with a very positive outlook moving forward, with it's first style. It has a very bright future, which is all one can ask of from a first style to a tree. I did a good job. I know this is almost an impossible thing for folks here to say, seeing everyone always has to tear folks down.... Someone from what I heard paid $400 plus dollars for the tree at the auction... so, someone else apearantly thought more of the tree than others do here.

Kathy, whether you like her or not, is wrong. She merely voiced her "opinion" as others here have done. Now, some might agree with her and that is fine... they have the right to, just as folks have the right to think that the tree that won, deserved to win... still does not change the fact that there is plenty of evidence to support the fact, that yes a tree can be styled as I have done, and that I have the right to voice my objections to what was said... without bring ridiculed by comments from folks of how because they don't like my work, I don't know what I am doing. I didn't do this to you. Can u show me one Instance where I commented on anyone of your trees telling you that you haven't a clue of what you are doing and are trying to somehow pull something over on folks as you have suggested I have done? Come to think of it, when is the last time you have actually posted a tree. Time to put up or shut up. I can discuss a tree here, anyone's tree here... and actually discuss the tree, without trying to intervene my own personal feelings towards the person... tell me how many others can do the same? Take a look at my posts and see how many folks never comment on any of my posts unless they have something negative to say and again just trying to tear folks down... perhaps now you can join them?
 
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Kathy, whether you like her or not, is wrong.
No, it's your opinion that she is wrong. Just like it's my opinion that the other tree is better.

... without bring ridiculed by comments from folks of how because they don't like my work, I don't know what I am doing. I didn't do this to you.
And I didn't do it to you. I never said or implied that you don't know what you are doing.

This is the same old problem from a year or two ago, that I thought you had gotten past. As soon as someone criticizes or disagrees with you, you go into attack mode and become progressively more aggressive and nasty. I can imagine you sitting at your computer, foaming at the mouth. How many times have you written "I did a good job" today...yes, you did a good job. But someone else did a better job.
 
No, it's your opinion that she is wrong. Just like it's my opinion that the other tree is better.


And I didn't do it to you. I never said or implied that you don't know what you are doing.

This is the same old problem from a year or two ago, that I thought you had gotten past. As soon as someone criticizes or disagrees with you, you go into attack mode and become progressively more aggressive and nasty. I can imagine you sitting at your computer, foaming at the mouth. How many times have you written "I did a good job" today...yes, you did a good job. But someone else did a better job.
My mistake then... I must of misinterpreted your following statements...

"You're right, it's perfect just like all of your trees"

"So? Just because someone can do something doesn't mean it will look good. I can take a formal upright and lay it on its side and call it a cascade but I don't think it will get accepted to the National exhibition. And I don't think people here will fall all over themselves praising it and my wonderful vision"

These to me sounded a lot like what you said didn't happen?
 
I have to go with Sawgrass. Its not about who did the better job. He said that on numerous occasions here. I got that from him...he doesn't mind criticism nor losing. All he wants is a discussion on why she would say something like that....
I don't get why people don't stay on that point and engage in it.....?
 
As far as the criticism part, I have never had a problem with actual criticism when I believe it is actually sound, problem is that this rarely actually happens here at the Nut.

When you critiqued my Ficus that I entered into the National, it was sound, and I responded in a manner that was appropriate. Here I asked a simple question, you responded, I responded and got the well you're right it is perfect as all your trees are...
 
Sawgrass, I'm not sure what your beef is with opinions. There is rarely a "right" and "wrong" in these matters, and there are really only opinions. Some opinions will be more widely held and will be better defended than others, but the only thing you really can get from anyone is why they have the opinions they have.

My bonsai bona fides are not even close to yours, and I think you have much greater skills than I have, so I certainly can't tell you what is "wrong" about your tree, if anything. I will tell you I really liked your tree, especially having seen the before photo (which is not in the thread) but I do think Ryan's was the best tree. If there were medals, I'd have expected yours to take silver, and certainly not less than bronze, but I don't think you got ripped off when Ryan won.

I don't know exactly what Kathy meant by "trees don't grow like this", but when I saw the photo showing your tree from the front, I immediately noticed that the trunklike is almost circular, and in a pretty tight circle, too. Most cascades that have such powerful movement at the base continue to move in the same general direction along the cascade. In nature, that almost always happens. Rarely is there a force that powerfully bends the trunk backwards, leaving shari and jins all up the belly of the tree, yet lets the dominant cascading trunkline sneak back toward the lowest jin on the trunk. So perhaps she was alluding to that. Or perhaps the photo angle tricked me. Those are my thoughts.
 
Sawgrass, I'm not sure what your beef is with opinions. There is rarely a "right" and "wrong" in these matters, and there are really only opinions. Some opinions will be more widely held and will be better defended than others, but the only thing you really can get from anyone is why they have the opinions they have.

My bonsai bona fides are not even close to yours, and I think you have much greater skills than I have, so I certainly can't tell you what is "wrong" about your tree, if anything. I will tell you I really liked your tree, especially having seen the before photo (which is not in the thread) but I do think Ryan's was the best tree. If there were medals, I'd have expected yours to take silver, and certainly not less than bronze, but I don't think you got ripped off when Ryan won.

I don't know exactly what Kathy meant by "trees don't grow like this", but when I saw the photo showing your tree from the front, I immediately noticed that the trunklike is almost circular, and in a pretty tight circle, too. Most cascades that have such powerful movement at the base continue to move in the same general direction along the cascade. In nature, that almost always happens. Rarely is there a force that powerfully bends the trunk backwards, leaving shari and jins all up the belly of the tree, yet lets the dominant cascading trunkline sneak back toward the lowest jin on the trunk. So perhaps she was alluding to that. Or perhaps the photo angle tricked me. Those are my thoughts.
Have no beef with opinions, it's just that for me when one offers up an opinion, as in this case... it does no one any good to offer up such an opinion with out any sort of clarification. None was given... only a statement of a tree does not grow like this. No, it is my view that a tree doesn't grow like this. Just more of a matter of fact, a tree does not grow like this.

Now, seeing that you appear to have actually gone back to the beginning and read through all of what has been written, you will notice that the whole point of the discussion and title of the thread is about seasoned bonsai artists and their experiences... this is just one of mine, you will also note that the whole point of my initial post was merely to talk about the Joshua Roth Competition, and how great it was. How, others should really try and do it before coming a seasoned bonsai artist, seeing that it is a very rewarding experience. At the end of the day, really nothing else matters... I am sorry I even brought up the Kathy ordeal. I am sure she is awesome at what she does... with that said, I still don't believe her comment was incorrect, and personally would of been happier with nothing at all. Would of caused less confusion at least for me... Seeing this is all I have to take away from and supposedly learn from. All I have learned, is that this makes no sense... perhaps one day I will be able to ask her.

In the meantime, no skin off the nose,I am still continuing to do Bonsai, and to learn from the experiences I did take away from the overall event, the one's that make sense of course, and living life to the fullest! Anyone who actually knows me, knows that life for me is about going a million miles a second and enjoying every minute of the experience. Around here we play hard, and play even harder! No sleep till death!

More than time we return this to the original topic that it was intended...
 
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Have no beef with opinions, it's just that for me when one offers up an opinion, as in this case... it does no one any good to offer up such an opinion with out any sort of clarification. None was given... only a statement of a tree does not grow like this. No, it is my view that a tree doesn't grow like this. Just more of a matter of fact, a tree does not grow like this.

Now, seeing that you appear to have actually gone back to the beginning and read through all of what has been written, you will notice that the whole point of the discussion and title of the thread is about seasoned bonsai artists and their experiences... this is just one of mine, you will also note that the whole point of my initial post was merely to talk about the Joshua Roth Competition, and how great it was. How, others should really try and do it before coming a seasoned bonsai artist, seeing that it is a very rewarding experience. At the end of the day, really nothing else matters... I am sorry I even brought up the Kathy ordeal. I am sure she is awesome at what she does... with that said, I still don't believe her comment was incorrect, and personally would of been happier with nothing at all. Would of caused less confusion at least for me... Seeing this is all I have to take away from and supposedly learn from. All I have learned, is that this makes no sense... perhaps one day I will be able to ask her.

In the meantime, no skin off the nose,I am still continuing to do Bonsai, and to learn from the experiences I did take away from the overall event, the one's that make sense of course, and living life to the fullest! Anyone who actually knows me, knows that life for me is about going a million miles a second and enjoying every minute of the experience. Around here we play hard, and play even harder! No sleep till death!

More than time we return this to the original topic that it was intended...



Can I please see this tree now that's all I want !
 
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