Bio-Advanced 3 in 1 Rose Systemic

[August44]

Could also be oak shot hole leaf miner

Did you just make that up??

 

[River's Edge]

@Peter44 I have seen a couple little flying bugs near the tree, they looked almost like tiny flies, i didn't think they would eat the leaves. I haven't seen anything like a caterpillar or anything, and haven't even heard of oak leaf miners lol

Like I said, this problem was also present last year, which is why I assumed it was some kind of fungus/ disease. Initially I think anthracnose

@leatherback and @Jzack605 just hit the nail on the head for my conundrum. Last year I didn't treat it because it's just a tree growing out. This year, my goal is reduce acquiring trees and just to get everything healthy which led me to start this thread in the first place.

I know defoliation is not ideal/ recommend for pre-pre-bonsai so I wasn't sure if it would be worth it. On the other hand, by leaving the infected leaves on the tree is that just making my systemic treatment obsolete and futile? @Leo in N E Illinois what do you think about this?

The systemic will not be diminished by fungal spots on the leaves. It is designed to work within the plants system including the leaves.
I have found that systemics take a little longer to show results. I would begin to look for improvement within three weeks.
Some areas do look like insect damage as well so keep an eye out for that and turn the odd leaf over for. the sneaky ones that hide.

 

[Jzack605]

Did you just make that up??

There is nothing fake about the Japanagromyza viridula

 

[TN_Jim]

There is nothing fake about the Japanagromyza viridula

Nice
Thanks

Also,for those wanting to dig deeper on any critter, bugguide.net is an amazing site

Species Japanagromyza viridula - Oak Shothole Leafminer

An online resource devoted to North American insects, spiders and their kin, offering identification, images, and information.

bugguide.net

 

[leatherback]

Really? For a tree in training?

Was just offering an alternative to putting a broad array of anti-stuff in the yard.
I avoid spraying wherever possible. So yeah, I do pick off infected leaves and if I am concerned it may be something that is spreading I might defoliate a tree, in the right time of year (Which it would be now)

 

[Jzack605]

Was just offering an alternative to putting a broad array of anti-stuff in the yard.
I avoid spraying wherever possible. So yeah, I do pick off infected leaves and if I am concerned it may be something that is spreading I might defoliate a tree, in the right time of year (Which it would be now)

Fair enough. I’m the same way with my personal trees; and professionally try to minimize my spraying.

But I’d rarely opt for a full defoliation to gain control, certainly not in this scenario.

weakening a tree only puts stress on it and opens it up to pathogens and pests that will take advantage of those weakened defenses.

probably 90% of the trees I treat have a cultural problem that is causing the secondary outbreak due to stress.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Oaks are not like Ficus or trident maples, where defoliation can be done 3 times a year and the tree still thrives. But defoliation of an oak once every few years will not hurt.

So, if you want, go ahead and defoliate. Do your early summer pruning and wiring at the same time.

Do treat with the Bonide product and the Daconil. Read label, don't overdose.

Honestly, I can't see the tree in person. But from the photos, the leaf damage seems pretty minor. Myself, if I was not planning on exhibiting my tree in a show, myself I would just ignore the few holes, even if they are in every leaf. The holes are tiny, the leaves are otherwise mostly pretty healthy. But that is me. In person it may be more severe than it looks from photos.

So I guess I have not answered the question. You will have to decide how aggressively you want to tackle the problem. Treat with 2 products, and defoliate? Just treat and no defoliation? Only defoliate? Or do nothing?

To prevent building a reservoir or founder population of the pest, I probably should recommend the first option, treat with both product, Bonide & Daconil, and defoliate, prune & wire, as well. Your oak is a strong healthy tree, should tolerate "the works" well.

 

[Johnathan]

There is nothing fake about the Japanagromyza viridula

Wow! That looks like the tiny flies for sure and would explain why there was only flies around the oak tree.

It's been a couple days since I treated with the bonide and sprayed the leaves with the Daconil. I don't believe the problem is severe enough, or the tree far along enough in its styling to warrant a defoliation. I guess I will try and treat using the bonide and Daconil as directed this year and wait to see what type of leaves emerge next spring when I intend on repotting the tree anyway.

Now, onto these pest. From what I understand about my brief searches on Oak Shot Hole Leaf Miners is that the larvae eat its way out of the leaves and then fall into the soil, until they emerge next spring as flies... should I expect the bonide baths to kill the larvae, or go for something more extreme like say Sevin or something?

 

[Jzack605]

Are you using bonide infuse (propiconazole) and daconil to treat insects?

those are both fungicides so they’ll have no effect.

Sevin may be good but check the label. I couldn’t find a whole lot of treatment options. The main ones were just maintaining health and treat them when they are flying. Imidicloprid drenches work for other species of leaf miner with a longer half life.

 

[TN_Jim]

Devils advocate..

Oaks have been found to have mycorrhizal relationships..

The overall health of the tree could serve to prevent pathogens, health that could be augmented by systematic applications..

Could you catch some of the flies and photo them? I have taken decent photos with a hand lens and my phone...learning curve sure, but every one should have a hand lens and most have a phone with camera.

@Jzack605 raises a good point...which I don’t necessarily think requires immediate insecticide perhaps either.

Say it was this insect....from the link I sent, can see it found in Oklahoma in May if you hit the data tab..either way, could make a plan moving forward rather than dumping possibly unwarranted and possibly detrimental poisons to cure truly undiagnosed issues.


That said, I’ve put bayer 3-1 rose and systematic flower care on several deciduous trees this year. No adverse outcome, if not the opposite on some troubled trees, specifically a hackberry also treated after a with good organic fertilizer (Fox Farm -Japanese Maple)...I dunno, just thoughts.

 

[AJL]

Wow! That looks like the tiny flies for sure and would explain why there was only flies around the oak tree.

It's been a couple days since I treated with the bonide and sprayed the leaves with the Daconil. I don't believe the problem is severe enough, or the tree far along enough in its styling to warrant a defoliation. I guess I will try and treat using the bonide and Daconil as directed this year and wait to see what type of leaves emerge next spring when I intend on repotting the tree anyway.

Now, onto these pest. From what I understand about my brief searches on Oak Shot Hole Leaf Miners is that the larvae eat its way out of the leaves and then fall into the soil, until they emerge next spring as flies... should I expect the bonide baths to kill the larvae, or go for something more extreme like say Sevin or something?

Assuming this is Oak Shot Hole Leaf Miner, (and this is not clear from your photos,) If you picked off the affected leaves, or affected parts of the leaf, before the larvae exit the leaves to pupate in the soil you would reduce your risk of an infestation next year.
All this use of toxic chemicals is a bit OTT for one small tree in a pot!!

 

[Forsoothe!]

I preemptively treat everything except citrus I eat with Infuse and Bayer systemic drenches and spray/drench problems with Sevin, SoapShield & Pyola, or Neem, but only rarely have to spray, in my opinion, because I treat everything with systemic. If bugs don't get a foothold in the area, they don't get in the cycles of presenting, treating, ad infinitum. Treating after you see them means they are always there, you just don't see them until they reach some advance level of population. I treat all my roses with Bayer, too, because roses are carriers of everything under the sun. I keep everything in as much sun as they will stand, too, which makes for less problems with fungi et al. I water with a hose and spray the foliage over & under to keep the foliage from being dry long enough to invite mites. One other ~lucky condition: neighbors on either side have very little fancy landscaping or trees and a canal in back gives me a wide buffer zones free of host plants not under my control. That alone is immensely important. When you are closely surrounded by bushes not under your control and loaded with bugs you are subject to wave after wave of invaders looking for a free meal. My experience is there is a high correlation between people who are anti-chemical control and high pest populations. It is of course, their right and choice.

 

[AJL]

My experience is there is a high correlation between people who rely on using blanket -chemical control when they dont actually have a problem, and high pest/disease populations because they have wiped out all the natural predators ! Thats why there is little wildlife biodiversity left on commercial farms nowadays!!
I only have to use chemicals on bonsai as a last reort and then very sparingly in a carefully targetted way and can honestly say I dont have any serious pest problems other than a few aphids at this time of year. I havent had to resort to prophylactic chemical treatments because there are healthy populations of predator and parasitic insects in my local environment and my bonsai are generally heathy and vigorous through careful cultural practice,and thats how it should be! Youre quite welcome to invest your money in Monsanto or Bayer chemicals, turn a blind eye to the health and environmental impacts and nuke everything in sight- that is also of course your right!! LOL

 

[leatherback]

I preemptively treat everything except citrus I eat with Infuse and Bayer systemic drenches and spray/drench problems with Sevin, SoapShield & Pyola, or Neem, but only rarely have to spray, in my opinion, because I treat everything with systemic. If bugs don't get a foothold in the area, they don't get in the cycles of presenting, treating, ad infinitum.

Wow.. am I glad your garden does not border mine. I love the birds, bats, grasshoppers etc roaming around in my yard.

 

[Johnathan]

Could you catch some of the flies and photo them?

I will try, I haven't seen any the last day or so after the "chemical bomb"

I totally agree with you guys about the use of chemicals, and outside of wiping down ficus leaves with dish soap, I don't really have much experience in the category lol

Like I said this is my first time really attempting to eliminate any health issues with the trees besides the use of water, sun, and fertilizer... so maybe I'm being a little overzealous lol

I do enjoy the good insects, the lady bugs, spiders, and occasionally a wasp but I also want to maximize health and growing conditions. Unfortunately, from what I've read, there aren't many "natural" remedies for leaf miners, and even less info on the Oak Shot Hole Miner

The bottom line is that they are here... possibly.... with them comes the Oak Anthracnose.... possibly.... there is something wrong with the tree.... definitely.

We gotta use what we can use to do what we have to get done. lol while I advocate not going completely bat shit crazy with chemicals I also think @Forsoothe! is implementing a strategy that I will adopt (maybe not to that extreme) but I don't see anything wrong with treating preemptively... If done within reasonable margins and only done 2 or 3 times a year.

But I do not intend to just ambush all the trees with multiple chemicals every month for the sake of "health"

 

[Forsoothe!]

I too, do like to go all bat shit with chemicals. I have a routine of systemics in May and September expressly to preempt chewing critters and scale. Other than that, the Infuse I use in June preempts what comes with the high-humidity/high temps of late June to early August. Th

 

[Forsoothe!]

I too, do not go all bat shit with chemicals. I have a routine of systemics in May and September expressly to preempt chewing critters and scale. Other than that, the Infuse I use in June preempts what comes with the high-humidity/high temps of late June to early August. The Sevin is not used very often and only rarely on something in flower. I have substantial tall Phlox and Hosta in bloom most of the summer and support a good population of Bumble Bees all summer. Wasps are also all over the place. I'm not sure exactly which "good" bugs I'm precluding so I'll get something off my chest: I'm more than a little tired of Goody Two-Shoes trying to shame me and other people into believing that killing pests is some kind of crime against nature. My little piece of heaven is a nice place with Ladybugs, Humming Birds, Robins, a million other birds, etc., and I don't welcome ants, aphids, slugs, scale, mildew, anthracnose, et al. My yard is beautiful and I keep it that way. Other can have, or not have whatever, and are welcome to it. Go clean your bugs with soapy water which has never, ever, had much effect on more than a few plants on a few square feet. I have lots to protect and do. If you can protect what you have with soapy water, you ain't got much.

 

[leatherback]

Goody Two-Shoes

What is it with all the name-calling when people have a different opinion. Jeez.