For Satsuki lovers

[rockm]

FWIW, its an apples and oranges comparison between Japanese show satsukis and box store azalea stock plants. Both are what they are.

Believing you're going to get something like in the pics here using Home Depot stock grown out in your backyard isn't realistic.

The production of azalea bonsai in Japan is an industry unto itself. They are set up to produce material that can't be found in any way shape or form in the U.S.

Sounds snobbish, but it's just true. I didn't believe it to be so until I scratched together enough dinero to get a Japanese import. Looking closely at the selection of imported plants up close, it was immediately obvious (even to a dimwit like me) that to produce the same thing here in the U.S. in my backyard would be impossible or take two decades to make a half-assed facsimile that I'd never be really happy with.

That is why imported plants are so expensive. You're buying time and expertise, not to mention covering the costs of quarantine.

As for American grown azaleas, the best source is old hedges, not home depot. There are some spectacular old landscape azaleas out there that approach the Japanese images. You just have to find them and convince the owners to let you have them. ;-)

 

[barrosinc]

FWIW, its an apples and oranges comparison between Japanese show satsukis and box store azalea stock plants. Both are what they are.

Believing you're going to get something like in the pics here using Home Depot stock grown out in your backyard isn't realistic.

The production of azalea bonsai in Japan is an industry unto itself. They are set up to produce material that can't be found in any way shape or form in the U.S.

Sounds snobbish, but it's just true. I didn't believe it to be so until I scratched together enough dinero to get a Japanese import. Looking closely at the selection of imported plants up close, it was immediately obvious (even to a dimwit like me) that to produce the same thing here in the U.S. in my backyard would be impossible or take two decades to make a half-assed facsimile that I'd never be really happy with.

That is why imported plants are so expensive. You're buying time and expertise, not to mention covering the costs of quarantine.

As for American grown azaleas, the best source is old hedges, not home depot. There are some spectacular old landscape azaleas out there that approach the Japanese images. You just have to find them and convince the owners to let you have them. ;-)

So, what do you think they do, that we don't??
I live in a country that does not allow to import trees under any circumstance (Seeds yes, but not trees). I bought some ten year old azaleas, and want to plant one of them in the ground to get to something to a larger size in 10 years or so. If those take 20 years in Japan and then export them, why wouldn't a 2 or 3 year old tree from Home Depot do the same in 17-20 years?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

The production of azalea bonsai in Japan is an industry unto itself. They are set up to produce material that can't be found in any way shape or form in the U.S.

That could be said about a lot of things produced in Japan.

 

[rockm]

So, what do you think they do, that we don't??
I live in a country that does not allow under any reasons to import trees. I bought some ten year old azaleas, and want to plant one of them in the ground to get to something to a larger size in 10 years or so. If those take 20 years in Japan and then export them, why wouldn't a 2 or 3 year old tree from Home Depot do the same in 17-20 years?

Because you don't grow azaleas for a living. The folks in Japan do and have been doing so for a long time. During that time, they have developed an azalea bonsai production line of sorts that produces extremely fine trees in significantly less time than you will be able to. FWIW, the evidence of that quality is in the imports. The stuff we get in the U.S. ARE THE REJECTS the Japanese deem inferior. Those inferior trees are vastly superior to anything in the U.S. (even old 100 year old landscape plants)
Sticking an azalea in the ground (And the type of ground makes a big difference) is but one of the steps in growing them out for bonsai. There are a lot more specific techniques and materials used to produce those Japanese trees.
There is an ENTIRE TOWN in Japan dedicated to producing Azalea bonsai. It is an industry, with growing facilities designed specifically to grow out azaleas Unless you have the understanding of the material, timing and techniques involved and when to apply them or not, you're unlikely to have something in 20, or even 200 years that's comparable.

I know, I know, all this this sounds snobbish and elitist, but it's not. It's a question of history and experience. This is not to say you won't have a decent trunk to start with after 20 years, its just not going to look like the pics here.

http://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2014/06/01/japan-satsuki-bonsai-tour-part-6/
Kanuma City
http://www.japanguides.net/tochigi/the-city-of-kanuma-kanuma-shi.html

 

[rockm]

Because you don't grow azaleas for a living. The folks in Japan do and have been doing so for a long time. During that time, they have developed an azalea bonsai production line of sorts that produces extremely fine trees in significantly less time than you will be able to. FWIW, the evidence of that quality is in the imports. The stuff we get in the U.S. ARE THE REJECTS the Japanese deem inferior. Those inferior trees are vastly superior to anything in the U.S. (even old 100 year old landscape plants)
Sticking an azalea in the ground (And the type of ground makes a big difference) is but one of the steps in growing them out for bonsai. There are a lot more specific techniques and materials used to produce those Japanese trees.
There is an ENTIRE TOWN in Japan dedicated to producing Azalea bonsai. It is an industry, with growing facilities designed specifically to grow out azaleas Unless you have the understanding of the material, timing and techniques involved and when to apply them or not, you're unlikely to have something in 20, or even 200 years that's comparable.

I know, I know, all this this sounds snobbish and elitist, but it's not. It's a question of history and experience. This is not to say you won't have a decent trunk to start with after 20 years, its just not going to look like the pics here.

http://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2014/06/01/japan-satsuki-bonsai-tour-part-6/
Kanuma City
http://www.japanguides.net/tochigi/the-city-of-kanuma-kanuma-shi.html

another link scroll to bottom for typical field pic, then click on some of the examples. None of the plants for sale is older than 40 or so.
http://satsuki-bonsai.com/
A fleeting shot of the raised beds used to produce trunks here. Watch the opening page slide show for a wide shot of an azalea "farm":
http://yamakaengei.com/en/index.php?main_page=index

 

[barrosinc]

So,from that website it seems they start like this:

 

[rockm]

Yeah, and bonsai pots start with mud. Look, you're not going to produce something anywhere close to what's coming out of Japan. Getting from a wired whip to something like this
takes a bit more than planting it in your backyard.

 

[barrosinc]

I have no choice... either do my best or just look at them over the internet. There is no way I am going to change legislation to be able to import a satsuki azalea. It is not a money issue. I am trying to do the best I can with what I can get.

 

[rockm]

I understand that, but expecting to get what you're seeing on the Internet isn't really a realistic goal. Getting upset with me because I pointed that out is pointless. By all means, do your best, be patient and you will wind up with a pretty decent tree on your own.

 

[AboveBeyond]

So,from that website it seems they start like this:
View attachment 75552

WOw, I didn't realize that how's they're grown. Time to wire my azaleas.

 

[barrosinc]

I understand that, but expecting to get what you're seeing on the Internet isn't really a realistic goal. Getting upset with me because I pointed that out is pointless. By all means, do your best, be patient and you will wind up with a pretty decent tree on your own.

I am not getting upset with you, but I think you read me as "that I think I can grow kokufu world class bonsai"... this has never been my goal, not on maples nor on any other variety. Let's say I want to achieve an azalea that could be confused to look the same by my mother XD.

Even with the import you bought, it will be hard to make it world class and I understand that. Kokufu has never been my goal. Just an azalea that really stands out.

 

[rockm]

Maybe not upset, but you are getting all passive aggressive.

FWW, no I don't think you're saying you can grow kokufu grade azalea, but I do think you've got your sights set a bit high to match your opinion of what you can do. Even with my lowly import I am substantially challenged in keeping it even in half-assed shape and I've been doing bonsai for 20 years. Azaleas are NOT like deciduous or coniferous bonsai subjects. They require specialized skills and a different understanding of what will work with them. Read more (the Stone Lantern Azalea book is worth every penny,
http://www.amazon.com/Satsuki-Azaleas-Bonsai-Enthusiasts-Azalea/dp/0976755017
this is also a good read
http://www.amazon.com/Brocade-Pillow-Azaleas-Old-Japan/dp/0834801914
Blog
https://satsukienthusiast.wordpress.com/
Also, find a source for Kanuma, pumice and akadama...

 

[barrosinc]

Also, find a source for Kanuma, pumice and akadama...

not happening, got it, not happening... hahahah no soil imports restrictions apply too!
I will start using 30% pumice, 30% pine bark, 30% lava and a bit 10% or less of peat. I used too much peat last year and had root problems.

 

[Don Blackmond]

barros, part of the process is starting with good stock, regardless of size. If you are starting from scratch, then make sure you are using a cultivar that has small leaves and good flowers. There are lots of azaleas. Not all of them have small leaves or small flowers or amazing flowers. Start with the best you can find. It sounds like you are stuck due to government restrictions. That sucks.

 

[Don Blackmond]

If you start them when young and pliable, you can do a lot to the trunks to make them appealing even when not flowering. But really, they are best when flowering.

 

[Vin]

They look damn good Don. Is that first one fused? I'm afraid to ask how much the Trident is because I may not be able to say no.

 

[barrosinc]

If you start them when young and pliable, you can do a lot to the trunks to make them appealing even when not flowering. But really, they are best when flowering.

View attachment 75579

those are nice, Don!
Did you use that really long cutting method??

 

[Don Blackmond]

I did not start these, sorry. Just pointing out that you can make nice trunks if you start early and put some movement in. Here are a couple of kaho mallsai.

 

[Harunobu]

Many satsuki have large leaves and flowers. Satsuki backbud more and respond better to pruning than kurume/kaempferi hybrids.

In Japan they are able to grow a cutting into a whip really fast, then wire it up. They use heated greenhouses to make them grow as fast as physically possible. If you grow them in normal weather, it will harden off before it becomes tall and you can't wire it up like they do. Then, you need to prune more to direct the growth, which slows down fattening the trunk.

That some lonely amateur enthusiast aikouka can't compete with a whole town dotted with family businesses in satsuki azalea is a given. But we can start where we are now and move on from there.

Also no reason we can't grow azalea for flowers.

In fact, the landscape azaleas nurseries here produce are of excellent quality. Extremely consistent. Just not what you want for bonsai. And they do that all without kanuma soil. Growing a bonsai is a different matter, but no reason why these can only be grown in Japan.

Many satsuki in Japan are actually of low bonsai quality, but very high horticulture quality. Many satsuki aikouka care little for extreme bonsai dogma. They just take a cultivar with nice flowers and do some fun stuff with them. No need to wait 30 years to grow a huge trunk when you can have fun right now.

 

[armetisius]

I have no choice... either do my best or just look at them over the internet. There is no way I am going to change legislation to be able to import a satsuki azalea. It is not a money issue. I am trying to do the best I can with what I can get.

Max,
I just do not know why I never noticed your zone was 9b. Perhaps ask for "Malaysian Rhododendrons" which
is one of the trade names for the more tropical strains of azalea-like shrubs known as vireyas.
Would be a beautiful addition to your plant collection if available there. Just a thought . . . here is what I am
talking about:
http://www.vireya.net/
Good growing