Foliar feeding - Do's and don'ts

[Wilson]

I remember back when I was living in BC, the pot growers loved seaweed foliar spray. It's true though that back in the day those guys had money to burn!

 

[Clicio]

I use a foliage spray of HB-101. It’s not a fertilizer.

Could you please explain what is HB-101?

 

[just.wing.it]

Honestly, in my own, simple minded, humble opinion....
I think we can provide plenty of nutrients to the soil in out pots, that foliar feeding is unnecessary (assuming that it does work)...

I don't like to wet my foliage at all, if I can avoid it... I think it may make a better habitat for fungus to grow...

Don't the leaves have enough work to do with all that photosynthesis???!

 

[Tieball]

Could you please explain what is HB-101?

The website can explain it best. Http://www.hb-101usa.com
The free sample you can request would give you an opportunity to test it yourself. That’s how I started.

 

[sorce]

I throw the fish in the J canopies cuz BVF does/did.
And for the wasps.
And cuz most of it gets the soil.
And if I miss the earth grows better.

And cuz it stanks!

Sorce

 

[just.wing.it]

And cuz it stanks!

This is usually not a good reason to do stuff...
?

 

[fourteener]

have you traced that yourself? I just googled it (google scholar) and found multiple studies showing that plants and tree do absorb nutrients through their leaves. The rates vary among the different nutrients, but they are absorbed nonetheless. More, in aquatic plants, foliar vs root uptake of nutrients is exactly the same.

Yes, I have traced it myself, thanks for the accusation. In a moment when I thought otherwise I did a lot of reading on the subject. I have used miracle grow and other similar products all the years I have done Bonsai, it was an interesting read.

If you want to study it, find a way to water your foliage with out any going into the soil.

 

[Saddler]

Yes, I have traced it myself, thanks for the accusation. In a moment when I thought otherwise I did a lot of reading on the subject. I have used miracle grow and other similar products all the years I have done Bonsai, it was an interesting read.

If you want to study it, find a way to water your foliage with out any going into the soil.

Uhh, who made an accusation? Did I miss something?

New and old, information and studies alike are being put online at an alarming rate. Just because there was only one study a few years ago, or even six months ago, and that was the only one referenced doesn’t mean that is what is there today. When there is only wide spread access to one study at the time, it makes sense most would use it, but as old data builds goes digital, things change.

 

[wireme]

you might just be laying down the ultimate snack palace for various not-so-beneficial microbes. It's not needed. It isn't necessary.

I’ve always thought the opposite actually, also a heavy “might” but foliar feeding with the right ingredients may have the potential to really boost populations of protective organisms don’t you think? Feed whatever helps fight off things like CA rust for example. Foliar feed during the down season of pathogenic spores and stop when they are flying maybe? Maybe foliar feeding can give you a healthier plant not because you’re feeding the plant but because you’re feeding mutualists.

Another thought, it seems like there’s disagreement about the capability of a plant take in nutrients through leaves and needles. I’ve seen the epic arguments here in the past. I wonder this. Endophytic organisms, foliar endophytes, especially fungi, I believe some of these also produce some structures external to the plant right? Like micro mycelium hairs reaching out while the main body resides inside. Maybe there’s a nutrient pathway there via symbiosis that hasn’t been investigated much? Some other kind of community effort maybe.
You might be the only one here who doesn’t think I’m off my rocker talking about stuff like this. Or, if you do too then maybe it’s time I accept it?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I’ve always thought the opposite actually, also a heavy “might” but foliar feeding with the right ingredients may have the potential to really boost populations of protective organisms don’t you think? Feed whatever helps fight off things like CA rust for example. Foliar feed during the down season of pathogenic spores and stop when they are flying maybe?

Another thought, it seems like there’s disagreement about the capability of a plant take in nutrients through leaves and needles. I’ve seen the epic arguments here in the past. I wonder this. Endophytic organisms, foliar endophytes, especially fungi, I believe some of these also produce some structures external to the plant right? Like micro mycelium hairs reaching out while the main body resides inside. Maybe there’s a nutrient pathway there via symbiosis that hasn’t been investigated much? Some other kind of community effort maybe.
You might be the only one here who doesn’t think I’m off my rocker talking about stuff like this. Or, if you do too then maybe it’s time I accept it?

You must've found out i like speculating.
The fungi are there, for sure. And some pathways have been described. For bacteria too by the way. I know they have a special name, but it's been quite some time since I read about them. But how do we know we're feeding them and not the pathogens? Beneficial symbiotic relations can be broken by providing one of the partners with extra nutrients (making it less dependable from host). Since we can't know for sure yet, we can't reliably say what we're feeding.

It would be wisest, if in doubt, to feed before and after fungal season (infection seasons: late spring, early/mid fall) in effort to avoid feeding pathogens. But.. Those seasons are optimal for our 'servant' fungi; humidity, temperature, carbohydrate production/availability are at the best conditions. The beneficials might even retract inside the bark during harsh seasons like summer and winter.
Man, there's just so little to read about this other than the scarce news article every now and then.
I believe you, I'm pretty convinced myself too. Maybe it's just time to start isolating and growing these. Screw ID's, just check which one of them has the biggest effect after inoculation.
I have already started mixed cultures of pine mycorrhizae and rhizobacteria (but only the ones that grow on solid agar medium). I wasn't thinking about making isolates, but I'm considering it now.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Could you please explain what is HB-101?

It is Japanese made and said to be plant vitalizer(trans by Japanese). Personally use this mixed with 20-20-20 fertilizer full strength (for potted plants) in spray bottle. Personally and particularly use for pines needing boosted after repotting or recovery from Yamadori collection and have found to be helpful. In most urgent cases personally may use 3 times weekly but never in sunny weather. Always I spray before sunset or cloudy cool days to reduce risk of any burning and give chance to soak in. Have used on deciduous trees needing help as well. As mentioned earlier foliage can absorb at least some of this and can be great help when roots compromised. Whatever it takes.

 

[MichaelS]

Foliar feeding works if the tree is deficient in one or more mineral elements IF it does not have access to them in the soil (because they aren't there.....add them...) OR, because it cannot for some reason take them up if they are there...pH issues, root damage etc.) It won't help if a plant is getting everything it needs already. That's what the studies show. Having said that, foliar feeding is vital in agricultural regions where certain crops have a hard time accessing certain elements. Citrus in Florida springs to mind. Feeding pathogenic microbes on the leaves? IMO.. pure nonsense. . BTW nutrient elements can penetrate through the actual cuticle of at least some leaves. It does not need to enter through the stomates. I don't think foliar feeding waxy leaved species works very well unless a strong wetting agent and a ''sticker'' is used. Leaf damage might be possible with those?

 

[sorce]

nonsense

Fitting!

off my rocker

Me too....

But for me....this is a POSITIVE "it depends".

"It depends" being something we need to figure out.

Off the rocker....but if it's still rocking....
Something is good!

Like the recent Shimpaku Foliage color thread....
I feel like fishing the foliage minimizes this.
(Maximizes too if you don't allow it to dry out / keep it thinned properly)

Its "give and take" like everything else.

"It depends" makes it hard to realize % to give and take. Be it...anything we do at all!
Pruning potting blah blah...all of it!

One thing for sure....

Canopies of trees hold ENTIRELY INDIVIDUAL RARE AND EXOTIC ECOSYSTEMS KNOWN TO NOWHERE ELSE.

So
IMO...

To think this is not going on in our canopies on a smaller scale is Nonsense, be it just the wasps the lichen and what we already know to exist.

Matter of fact....
The only insect I've ever seen crawling on lichen was a spider.
And remember....

I stare at trees so much I have been pulled over by the police because they thought I was on fungus! Tripping!

There is a lot we don't know.

I'll keep feeding it the fish.
Until it reads like a Dr. Seuss Book.

Sorce

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Yes, I have traced it myself, thanks for the accusation. In a moment when I thought otherwise I did a lot of reading on the subject. I have used miracle grow and other similar products all the years I have done Bonsai, it was an interesting read.

If you want to study it, find a way to water your foliage with out any going into the soil.

I have not accused you of anything. I simply asked a question. I'm sorry if that offended you.

I did look for it and found otherwise, hence the question. Oftentimes, that's how myths are propagated... someone says something, and the word is spread without checking...

ah and In some studies I read, and they were quite old, they managed to apply the nutrients on the leaves without watering the soil.

Foliar feeding works if the tree is deficient in one or more mineral elements IF it does not have access to them in the soil (because they aren't there.....add them...) OR, because it cannot for some reason take them up if they are there...pH issues, root damage etc.) It won't help if a plant is getting everything it needs already. That's what the studies show. Having said that, foliar feeding is vital in agricultural regions where certain crops have a hard time accessing certain elements. Citrus in Florida springs to mind. Feeding pathogenic microbes on the leaves? IMO.. pure nonsense. . BTW nutrient elements can penetrate through the actual cuticle of at least some leaves. It does not need to enter through the stomates. I don't think foliar feeding waxy leaved species works very well unless a strong wetting agent and a ''sticker'' is used. Leaf damage might be possible with those?

That's exactly what I found. Moreover, if one thinks about it, how are systemics (fungicides and others) applied? Mostly via spray. What is copper and sulphur? nutrients for plants. How would they get inside the plants, if not absorbed by the leaves?

"Feeding pathogenic microbes on the leaves? IMO.. pure nonsense" I feel the same. If anything, the build up of salts on the leaves will make life a lot harder for this microbiota. Fungi do not feed on nutrients. They feed on carbon.

 

[sorce]

@crust...just random

But...

This alone says lichen has the possibility to keep Moths and Butterflies that eat your leaves away....

If you care to study wether or not eggs or other presence of one, can keep others away with ferremones and the like. .

That's a waste of time study....

But yeah for the 1% chamce of benefit...

And knowing we dont know.

Sorce

 

[papymandarin]

sorry but if these species of bugs feed EXCLUSIVELY on lichens, it means they are not the species possibly attacking trees anyway, so its irrelevant regarding our trees.

 

[hemmy]

Foliar feeding works if the tree is deficient in one or more mineral elements IF it does not have access to them in the soil (because they aren't there.....add them...) OR, because it cannot for some reason take them up if they are there...pH issues, root damage etc.) It won't help if a plant is getting everything it needs already. That's what the studies show. Having said that, foliar feeding is vital in agricultural regions where certain crops have a hard time accessing certain elements. Citrus in Florida springs to mind. Feeding pathogenic microbes on the leaves? IMO.. pure nonsense. . BTW nutrient elements can penetrate through the actual cuticle of at least some leaves. It does not need to enter through the stomates. I don't think foliar feeding waxy leaved species works very well unless a strong wetting agent and a ''sticker'' is used. Leaf damage might be possible with those?

I concur (mostly). Unfortunately some aspects of bonsai aren’t that relatable to commercial horticulture, except for those that are. . .

A link in support of above
www.crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/trade_journals/2014/2014_April_citriculture.pdf

And I also like the wording here:
https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/foliar-feeding.pdf

From Dr. Chalker-Scott with my comments in bold:
“Foliar feeding is yet another agricultural practice best suited to intensive crop production under specific
soil limitations rather than as a landscape management tool.” It seems like bonsai meets those criteria.

The Bottom Line
• Tree and shrub species differ dramatically in their ability to absorb foliar fertilizers.
• Proper plant selection relative to soil type is crucial to appropriate mineral nutrition.
• Foliar spraying is best accomplished on overcast, cool days to reduce leaf burn.
• In landscape plants, foliar spraying can test for nutrient deficiencies, but not solve them.
• Micronutrients are the only minerals that are effectively applied through foliar application.
• Foliar application will not alleviate mineral deficiencies in roots or subsequent crown growth.
• Foliar spraying is only a temporary solution to the larger problem of soil nutrient availability.
• Minerals (especially micronutrients) applied in amounts that exceed a plant’s needs can injure or
kill the plant and contribute to environmental pollution.
• Any benefit from foliar spraying of landscape trees and shrubs is minor considering the cost and
labor required. I think we can all agree that our cost/benefit ratio for bonsai is fairly abnormal.

 

[wireme]

You must've found out i like speculating.
The fungi are there, for sure. And some pathways have been described. For bacteria too by the way. I know they have a special name, but it's been quite some time since I read about them. But how do we know we're feeding them and not the pathogens? Beneficial symbiotic relations can be broken by providing one of the partners with extra nutrients (making it less dependable from host). Since we can't know for sure yet, we can't reliably say what we're feeding.

It would be wisest, if in doubt, to feed before and after fungal season (infection seasons: late spring, early/mid fall) in effort to avoid feeding pathogens. But.. Those seasons are optimal for our 'servant' fungi; humidity, temperature, carbohydrate production/availability are at the best conditions. The beneficials might even retract inside the bark during harsh seasons like summer and winter.
Man, there's just so little to read about this other than the scarce news article every now and then.
I believe you, I'm pretty convinced myself too. Maybe it's just time to start isolating and growing these. Screw ID's, just check which one of them has the biggest effect after inoculation.
I have already started mixed cultures of pine mycorrhizae and rhizobacteria (but only the ones that grow on solid agar medium). I wasn't thinking about making isolates, but I'm considering it now.

Well there is plenty of research going on relating to the effects of different organisms on and within plant tissues.
Your nitrifying bacteria, fungal endophytes that protect limber pine against white pine blister rust have been identified and isolated from trees in my area. Some combinations confer heat and drought tolerance, deter herbivore browsing and insect damage... etc, etc. Of course the pathogens also heavily studied.
This is all known and being studied. Is anyone looking at how these populations can be effected by foliar sprays of different recipes, not necessarily nitrogen based, carbohydrate or complex carbon maybe or, whatever, it would be an interesting path of investigation I think.


For now we don’t know enough for practical applications, it may be to complicated a system to ever be predictable but general trend could be determined. Even just counting population densities of target beneficial organisms on sprayed vs unsprayed, surely someone somewhere is working on something like that?

 

[wireme]

Fitting!




Me too....

But for me....this is a POSITIVE "it depends".

"It depends" being something we need to figure out.

Off the rocker....but if it's still rocking....
Something is good!

Like the recent Shimpaku Foliage color thread....
I feel like fishing the foliage minimizes this.
(Maximizes too if you don't allow it to dry out / keep it thinned properly)

Its "give and take" like everything else.

"It depends" makes it hard to realize % to give and take. Be it...anything we do at all!
Pruning potting blah blah...all of it!

One thing for sure....

Canopies of trees hold ENTIRELY INDIVIDUAL RARE AND EXOTIC ECOSYSTEMS KNOWN TO NOWHERE ELSE.

So
IMO...

To think this is not going on in our canopies on a smaller scale is Nonsense, be it just the wasps the lichen and what we already know to exist.

Matter of fact....
The only insect I've ever seen crawling on lichen was a spider.
And remember....

I stare at trees so much I have been pulled over by the police because they thought I was on fungus! Tripping!

There is a lot we don't know.

I'll keep feeding it the fish.
Until it reads like a Dr. Seuss Book.

Sorce

Fish away man!

All uncertainties aside I think it’s probably a good thing to do even if it only because it drips to the soil. If you don’t see harm and believe to see benefits keep on given’er. Think about blending kelp into your fish for your fert uses. I can’t tell you why, past readings that are fuzzy now + more conjecture.
With all my talk I actually do not foliar feed. Often I think I should, I have tried, poor screening of my selected stuff, plugged up the sprayer...

 

[MichaelS]

I concur (mostly). Unfortunately some aspects of bonsai aren’t that relatable to commercial horticulture, except for those that are. . .

A link in support of above
www.crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/trade_journals/2014/2014_April_citriculture.pdf

And I also like the wording here:
https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/foliar-feeding.pdf

From Dr. Chalker-Scott with my comments in bold:
“Foliar feeding is yet another agricultural practice best suited to intensive crop production under specific
soil limitations rather than as a landscape management tool.” It seems like bonsai meets those criteria.

The Bottom Line
• Tree and shrub species differ dramatically in their ability to absorb foliar fertilizers.
• Proper plant selection relative to soil type is crucial to appropriate mineral nutrition.
• Foliar spraying is best accomplished on overcast, cool days to reduce leaf burn.
• In landscape plants, foliar spraying can test for nutrient deficiencies, but not solve them.
• Micronutrients are the only minerals that are effectively applied through foliar application.
• Foliar application will not alleviate mineral deficiencies in roots or subsequent crown growth.
• Foliar spraying is only a temporary solution to the larger problem of soil nutrient availability.
• Minerals (especially micronutrients) applied in amounts that exceed a plant’s needs can injure or
kill the plant and contribute to environmental pollution.
• Any benefit from foliar spraying of landscape trees and shrubs is minor considering the cost and
labor required. I think we can all agree that our cost/benefit ratio for bonsai is fairly abnormal.

Yes!
Proff Amy whateverhernamewas, used to swear by foliar feeding her trees but she was in Taiwan in a very humid climate. That helps a lot. If the leaves dry after 5 seconds as they do here, not so good.