Ebihara maples

[markyscott]

Here also is an example of a branch built in the manner that Adair discussed. As you can see, the downward shoot was eliminated in every case. I don't think this is a Boon thing - it's certainly how he was taught and how he teaches pruning, but neither of these examples are from Boon's garden.



Pick a maple you admire and study the branching - it's generally easy to see how they were built by looking at the structure. This is a great maple to me - I really like the branch structure. So I eliminate the downward growth and wire the upward growth down. That's how this tree was developed and I want my branch structure to look like this.

 

[0soyoung]

Here is a branch built by pruning the top and keeping the bottom (red circle)

I agree. That is one ugly branch. It happens from time to time.

In terms of the horizontal or side to side shoots (blue circle) of course they must be kept - no side branches, no ramification. No ramification, boring branches. I don't like boring branches, so I keep the horizontal shoots.

I agree for ramification

When I want to redirect a branch or develop ramification, however, I usually choose the horizontal pair

My point however, is that a branch with nothing but side to side nodes is a flat/planar branch (it will acquire a gentle curve upward due to gravitropism). I think that is generally boring - its just flat; no motion

Done repeatedly, this builds a branch out in a series of little hills.

Yes, this is what I like - the series of little hills or undulations and gentle curves.

Why not the bottom branch instead? Well, it would start off growing down, and as it extends and the weight of the leaves add on, it would just continue to droop.

My observation is that the downward going new shoot from a bud will almost always curve upward because of gravitropism and thus automatically produces the undulation that I like. Rarely does it continue on a downward trajectory. In these rare occasions, I use wire to correct the problem.

By the way, John Naka's books advocate keeping the lower bud instead of the top bud. Unfortunately, he got it backwards, too.

I am aware of that. In fact, I thought it crazy when I read it as a noob, but I think Naka was/is correct. Keep the down/outside buds to build branches with undulation.


Anyway, thanks for the discussion you SOBs
The why is most important to me.

 

[Adair M]

Oso, no thought about the downward growing bud/branch being shaded out by the upper growing one? That IS what happens most of the time.

Yes, upward/downward undulations are nice.

Excuse my poor drawing, but which branch shape looks better to you:

 

[0soyoung]

Excuse my poor drawing, but which branch shape looks better to you

Presently I prefer the bottom one, which is what one gets keeping the down bud. I understand that keeping the upper bud and wiring it down produces branches like depicted in your upper drawing. It seems unnatural (not that there is anything wrong with that).

 

[Adair M]

Presently I prefer the bottom one, which is what one gets keeping the down bud. I understand that keeping the upper bud and wiring it down produces branches like depicted in your upper drawing. It seems unnatural (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Really?

Go out and look at some deciduous trees.

You still haven't discussed the bottom branches getting shaded out.

 

[0soyoung]

In 'nature' an upper bud grows straight up - no one is there to wire them down.

Bottom branches do get shaded out. That is why they are the longest or they are dead. The branch ends usually arc upward (because of gravitropism). A bud that points out makes a new shoot. Its counterpart points in and eventually gets dropped for lack of light.
The bud that points out makes a stem that goes out and 'loops' up because of gravitropism (of course it may zig/zag because the dominant buds went orthogonally or parallel to the canopy surface). The branch (end) gets heavier and tends to be weighed down toward horizontal (the newer portions at the outer regions of the branch). So, I get this kind of movement by doing what any gardener would do - keep the lower bud.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, let's use your tree ...

Look at the lowest branch on the left. Close to the trunk, you can see where s series of top buds dominated. The branch extends in a series of humps, like my upper drawing.

It continues this way until about 3/4ths the way until the end. There, there is a big U shaped segment. Which is followed by another one. It appears that the top bud went vertical, straight up, so the bottom bud was pointing more out. So that branch has about 3/4 top buds, then 1/4 bottom buds making the leader.

Now let's look at another. This one is coming more at us, the second on the right. (Maybe the first right branch forks close to trunk. Any, this is the one coming more straight at us). The main line climbs pretty steadily. There are several bottom bud branches, but they are far less strong than the main branch. They're getting shaded out, and eventually the tree will drop them.

There is another U structure on a low branch on the right. Above where the red bushes begin.

But other than those, this tree is primarily a top bud tree!

 

[markyscott]

In 'nature' an upper bud grows straight up - no one is there to wire them down.

Bottom branches do get shaded out. That is why they are the longest or they are dead. The branch ends usually arc upward (because of gravitropism). A bud that points out makes a new shoot. Its counterpart points in and eventually gets dropped for lack of light.
The bud that points out makes a stem that goes out and 'loops' up because of gravitropism (of course it may zig/zag because the dominant buds went orthogonally or parallel to the canopy surface). The branch (end) gets heavier and tends to be weighed down toward horizontal (the newer portions at the outer regions of the branch). So, I get this kind of movement by doing what any gardener would do - keep the lower bud.

View attachment 101150

I see both motifs on your example. Here's my interpretation of the growth pattern.



There are certainly branches which look like the upper branch has died and the lower branch has grown as you have suggested. But there are many branches that have grown the other way. Is one pattern dominant? I think it generally conforms to Adair's first drawing, but I'm far too lazy to count. Here's another example of a tree somewhat older in appearance.



I can see in this example a couple of examples of what you were talking about, but I would argue that the branch growth is dominated by the former motif with upper shoots that have taken over and lower shoots that have died out.

I see both patterns in nature and probably both happen in any tree - life complicated and hard. Sometimes the upper shoot dies. Maybe it gets chewed on by an animal or insect. Maybe it gets diseased. Anything that can happen will. But I believe when I study trees that the dominant motif is Adair's first drawing. The second is more of an exception.

 

[Adair M]

Top buds get pulled down due to the accumulated wright of leaves, and future sub branches. It doesn't happen in a week, over month, or even a whole season. It happens over a longer period of time. Decades.

I say that, but I have some oak trees I have to prune every year so I can mow under them. Winter and spring, no problem. By the end of the summer, the weight of the leaves pulls the branches down to the point I have to duck under as I mow. So, I prune those branches off.

Next year, it happens again!

 

[YukiShiro]

Hi Guys,

looks like the tree Oso posted does display both patterns, though it seems closer to the trunk the top bud pattern dominates and at the ends the bottom bud pattern dominates?

I also think gravitropism plays a role

interesting stuff

best regards
Herman

 

[sorce]

I think most of those bottoms branches never.....or rarely lost an apical bud.

No one is there to wire them down.....
Or cut them back every year either.

That looks like a fun tree to climb!
I'll be up there with popcorn!

Sorce

 

[cmeg1]

Thanks for this awesome thread

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Good discussion!

 

[MACH5]

Oso, no thought about the downward growing bud/branch being shaded out by the upper growing one? That IS what happens most of the time.

Yes, upward/downward undulations are nice.

Excuse my poor drawing, but which branch shape looks better to you:

View attachment 101149

I use both within one tree. Simply because nature is varied and unpredictable. With few exceptions I have seen a tree grow in a homogeneous and specific branch pattern. The one thing I am always consistent about is that the ends always (ok almost always) grow upwards.

 

[Adair M]

Here are two trees of the same variety. The first one has not been pruned. You can see lots of low little branches. Under the canopy.

The second tree is right next it. This one is mine. I've pruned off the low branches and hanging branches so I can mow under it.



My tree:



Both these are oaks. Their buds are different than maples. Maples send out shoots with a center leader, and two leaves. At the base of each leaf, there are buds. These are sent out with the leaves oriented side by side for one pair, then ip/down for the next, then side to side, then up/down. And so on. They alternate.

Oaks send out shoots with one leaf at time. They make leaves on all sides, but only one leaf at a time.

So their growth looks a little different, but the same principle of top buds dominating still applies.

Here is a close up of a branch on the unpruned tree. Notice how there are hardly any "hanging branches" or twigs. That's because they got shaded out.





As you can see, there really aren't any twigs or strong branches growing "down" first, then turning up. They grow up first. Then the weight of the leaves and wood they produce pull them down to horizontal or even slightly down. Next year, they start off growing up again. And gravity pulls them back down.

 

[Adair M]

I use both within one tree. Simply because nature is varied and unpredictable. With few exceptions I have seen a tree grow in a homogeneous and specific branch pattern. The one thing I am always consistent about is that the ends always (ok almost always) grow upwards.

Of course! If the tree only wanted (needed) top buds, there wouldn't be downward facing buds. But, top growing buds should be the rule, and using the bottom growing bud the exception.

 

[sorce]

That's because they got shaded out.

I'll give you the design looks better....
Even partly this.....

But if those died solely because of shade..
I gotta do like Mike and put a light on my outdoor trees! Lol....

I think dropping water, hanging, freezing, and maybe deer also play a role.
Does it freeze down yonder?

Nice fence!
Scary clouds!

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

I'll give you the design looks better....
Even partly this.....

But if those died solely because of shade..
I gotta do like Mike and put a light on my outdoor trees! Lol....

I think dropping water, hanging, freezing, and maybe deer also play a role.
Does it freeze down yonder?

Nice fence!
Scary clouds!

Sorce

Course it freezes down here Sorce. Have a freezer, don't I? I even make ice cubes in it.

 

[Adair M]

I'll give you the design looks better....
Even partly this.....

But if those died solely because of shade..
I gotta do like Mike and put a light on my outdoor trees! Lol....

I think dropping water, hanging, freezing, and maybe deer also play a role.
Does it freeze down yonder?

Nice fence!
Scary clouds!

Sorce

We have lots of deer. They don't eat oak leaves. Especially those. They would have to be giraffes to reach them!

 

[markyscott]

So back to it. We recall Cousin It:



As you can see this tree is not pinched. I let the shoots grow because I'm building branch structure - once the branch structure is in place we'll start pinching. But there is a problem in letting maples (or any tree) grow this dense - not enough light and air gets to the interior of the tree. Keep a close eye on the soft interior growth. When this starts happening:




You know the interior growth is not getting enough light - weak shoots with no extension, yellowing leaves, dieing shoots - these signs all tell you it's time for spring work.