Ebihara maples

[markyscott]

Hm.. Am I understanding that people besides ebihara have been unable to do this?
Looks to me simple enough. Maybe I should putt some of my maples out of a pot and do some rootwork.

He does it no all sorts of trees right, not just tridents which are naturally gifted and grow like a liquid?

He worked primarily with Japanese maples, but he did some amazing stuff with zelcova as documented earlier in this thread. I don’t think I’ve seen anything he did with tridents.

- Scott

 

[Lars Grimm]

And that may be. I like to think that we’re just growing plants here, not doing brain surgery - how hard could it be? But it may be hard indeed - as a student of bonsai I hope through this thread and others like it, we can all learn together the degree to which Ebihara’s work may be replicated by we mortals.

I think some of his branch grafting techniques require the cambial layers to match up perfectly which is not easy.

 

[leatherback]

I think some of his branch grafting techniques require the cambial layers to match up perfectly which is not easy.

What I understand is that there the branches are supported by a separate rootsystem. So while the cambium merges, the graft is upported?

 

[Lars Grimm]

What I understand is that there the branches are supported by a separate rootsystem. So while the cambium merges, the graft is upported?

Yes, the branches are supported on another root system, but you have to match the donor and recipient cambial layers perfectly otherwise they won't take. They also have to match most, if not all, of the way around the cut. Finally, he also carves a peg so that the new branch can be more firmly seated in the new trunk. Not easy to do.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I would dispute how 'proven' a result is, if it cannot be duplicated.

The results have been duplicated nearly 100 times in Ebihara's garden. At least one tree built by Ebihara was submitted to Kokufu this year. We'll find out this weekend if it was accepted.

Unfortunately, it takes roughly 15-20 years to 'complete' the process. That amount of time is fundamental part of the recipe, and is just as important as any aspect of the physical techniques. This thread started in 2015, so you're not going to find 'duplication' here for another 10-15 years, but you can speak to former and current apprentices familiar with Kouka-en and Fuyo-en if you want to see duplication outside of Ebihara's garden

I get heavily ramified roots like this, doing nothing (no board, no nails, no screws) but let it grow in Turface MVP and root prune with repotting every year or two.

I don't want to reveal all of the details from Andrea Meriggioli's book, but the 'choking' that he proposes has multiple purposes. Sure it ramifies the roots, but if applied systematically it also helps control the maximum size that any root can get. It also allows roots to get to the desired size before being choked or pruned. (Ebihara would have managed this with diligent root pruning, instead of with Meriggioli's 'choking').

One notable characteristic of a lot of Ebihara maples is the number of evenly-sized 'fingers' on the perimeter of his nebari, all of which tend to lead back to the trunk (see 3 photos attached). In the picture of the tree you posted, i can see 6 larger roots. I'd say you're missing about 30-40 more of those emerging from around the circumference of the trunk to be doing what Ebihara was doing.

you have to match the donor and recipient cambial layers perfectly otherwise they won't take. They also have to match most, if not all, of the way around the cut. Finally, he also carves a peg so that the new branch can be more firmly seated in the new trunk. Not easy to do.

It's easier than you think
-The cambial layers do not need to line up perfectly all around. Take a look at pictures 4, 5 and 6 attached here. It's very far from an even match. Maybe it will help to think of what happens when you perform a thread graft without any cambial contact (or cambial contact only on one side).
-The peg doesn't need to be exact. It is cut to approximate size, and then 'cement' is used to hold it in place

 

[thumblessprimate1]

The uniformity in size of those fingers,
very nice to have on somewhat symmetrical trees like formal uprights and brooms I'd imagine.

My first and currently only "peg graft" on my rough bark Japanese maple was a nice experiment. I hope to get the experience of getting it to work!

The results have been duplicated nearly 100 times in Ebihara's garden. At least one tree built by Ebihara was submitted to Kokufu this year. We'll find out this weekend if it was accepted.

Unfortunately, it takes roughly 15-20 years to 'complete' the process. That amount of time is fundamental part of the recipe, and is just as important as any aspect of the physical techniques. This thread started in 2015, so you're not going to find 'duplication' here for another 10-15 years, but you can speak to former and current apprentices familiar with Kouka-en and Fuyo-en if you want to see duplication outside of Ebihara's garden



I don't want to reveal all of the details from Andrea Meriggioli's book, but the 'choking' that he proposes has multiple purposes. Sure it ramifies the roots, but if applied systematically it also helps control the maximum size that any root can get. It also allows roots to get to the desired size before being choked or pruned. (Ebihara would have managed this with diligent root pruning, instead of with Meriggioli's 'choking').

One notable characteristic of a lot of Ebihara maples is the number of evenly-sized 'fingers' on the perimeter of his nebari, all of which tend to lead back to the trunk (see 3 photos attached). In the picture of the tree you posted, i can see 6 larger roots. I'd say you're missing about 30-40 more of those emerging from around the circumference of the trunk to be doing what Ebihara was doing.



It's easier than you think
-The cambial layers do not need to line up perfectly all around. Take a look at pictures 4, 5 and 6 attached here. It's very far from an even match. Maybe it will help to think of what happens when you perform a thread graft without any cambial contact (or cambial contact only on one side).
-The peg doesn't need to be exact. It is cut to approximate size, and then 'cement' is used to hold it in place

 

[Adair M]

I think some of his branch grafting techniques require the cambial layers to match up perfectly which is not easy.

Juan Andrade has done some Ebihara style peg grafting where he’s moved branches from one part of the tree to another location by first approach grafting a seedling with roots on.

Juan is a very talented artist with great grafting skills. So, I think it’s like brain surgery: a skilled practitioner is a key to success.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I agree. Attention to detail and good hands are make a better graft. I have been grafting smaller branches recently and it is tough on the eyes and brain. Times i had to steady my breath. I keep thinking if only I were more skilled or experienced, this would be easier. But maybe it will be later if I keep it up.

 

[Adair M]

I agree. Attention to detail and good hands are make a better graft. I have been grafting smaller branches recently and it is tough on the eyes and brain. Times i had to steady my breath. I keep thinking if only I were more skilled or experienced, this would be easier. But maybe it will be later if I keep it up.

And having a REALLY sharp grafting knife!

 

[MACH5]

It's easier than you think
-The cambial layers do not need to line up perfectly all around. Take a look at pictures 4, 5 and 6 attached here. It's very far from an even match. Maybe it will help to think of what happens when you perform a thread graft without any cambial contact (or cambial contact only on one side).
-The peg doesn't need to be exact. It is cut to approximate size, and then 'cement' is used to hold it in place

Giving this a shot on a large multi-trunk Japanese maple that I am in the process of renovating. So far I have the stock grafted to one of its branches. Now I am waiting a bit longer before I separate the branch and start the relocation process.

I've been waiting for some years to try this and finally I found a patient I can try this on.

 

[Adair M]

Giving this a shot on a large multi-trunk Japanese maple that I am in the process of renovating. So far I have the stock grafted to one of its branches. Now I am waiting a bit longer before I separate the branch and start the relocation process.

I've been waiting for some years to try this and finally I found a patient I can try this on.

Ebihara used to have a garden full of ramified branches grafted onto seedlings he kept for when he needed to add a branch onto a trunk!

 

[leatherback]

So, I think it’s like brain surgery

You say.. if you know what you are doing, it is not hard?

 

[leatherback]

And having a REALLY sharp grafting knife!

Is this really that important?
Guess I know why I have such a poor grafting record. Only thread grafting is reliable. All veneer grafting so far has failed (But.. One from fall is still bright green)

 

[baron]

Ebihara used to have a garden full of ramified branches grafted onto seedlings he kept for when he needed to add a branch onto a trunk!

This I don't understand... How can he maintain that?
Surely the seedling maples grow hard every year and will out grow those grafted branches, no?
I would assume after a year or two they aren't seedlings anymore?
I'm wondering what happens with the full ramified branch once grafted to a seedling.

Does the ramified branch consume most of the energy so it doesn't grow as fast? Will the seedling grow like it would without the grafted branches?

 

[Adair M]

This I don't understand... How can he maintain that?
Surely the seedling maples grow hard every year and will out grow those grafted branches, no?
I would assume after a year or two they aren't seedlings anymore?
I'm wondering what happens with the full ramified branch once grafted to a seedling.

Does the ramified branch consume most of the energy so it doesn't grow as fast? Will the seedling grow like it would without the grafted branches?

Here’s a picture of one:



See the straight trunk below the branch? That was the seedling. He had dozens of these in all sizes and configurations for when he needed a branch. He could just go out, and find one that fit, and graft it on!

 

[Lars Grimm]

One notable characteristic of a lot of Ebihara maples is the number of evenly-sized 'fingers' on the perimeter of his nebari, all of which tend to lead back to the trunk (see 3 photos attached). In the picture of the tree you posted, i can see 6 larger roots. I'd say you're missing about 30-40 more of those emerging from around the circumference of the trunk to be doing what Ebihara was doing.

My understanding is that he achieves this by reworking/untangling the roots every year. He doesn't repot but clears away the top soil and manipulates the roots as needed. Is that your understanding as well?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

My understanding is that he achieves this by reworking/untangling the roots every year. He doesn't repot but clears away the top soil and manipulates the roots as needed. Is that your understanding as well?

I don't know. I was told that Ebihara was using boxes that were at most about 55-60cm (22-24"), but I assume he used smaller containers for younger material and gradually built up to that size. In my opinion if you're pruning roots you're pruning roots, and you have to clear away a lot of the substrate to get to the roots, especially to do such meticulous work with them. My maples don't care if they're truly naked when i work their roots, or if they still have crumbs of substrate here and there, but I don't know exactly how much substrate Ebhihara was replacing or displacing or how often (is that your question?). One thing to keep in mind is that he used 100% Akadama during the entire process, which I don't think would have held up for 15-20 years, but who knows?

Giving this a shot on a large multi-trunk Japanese maple that I am in the process of renovating. So far I have the stock grafted to one of its branches. Now I am waiting a bit longer before I separate the branch and start the relocation process

Very exciting! The most anticipated post of 2020! (2021?)

Sergio are the donor and recipient both standard Acer Pamatum? David E. was telling me this weekend that if you use different cultivars to do it (e.g. beni chidori branches onto a vigorous standard Acer P. trunk), it is possible that the graft union will get 'lumpy' over time due to the differences in growth-rates of each 'cultivar' (comparison was made to grafting JWP onto JBP). I've seen a few 10 year old thread grafts (not in David's garden) where it is possible that this is happening (with deshojo and standard Acer P), but it could just have been less-than-optimal initial thread graft work. Any thoughts? I don't have many old-thread grafts in my area to investigate. I also have not been able to find anybody who can confirm if Ebihara experimented with mixing cultivars

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Would you agree that the "peg" graft is basically a type of approach graft?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I don't know. I was told that Ebihara was using boxes that were at most about 55-60cm (22-24"), but I assume he used smaller containers for younger material and gradually built up to that size. In my opinion if you're pruning roots you're pruning roots, and you have to clear away a lot of the substrate to get to the roots, especially to do such meticulous work with them. My maples don't care if they're truly naked when i work their roots, or if they still have crumbs of substrate here and there, but I don't know exactly how much substrate Ebhihara was replacing or displacing or how often (is that your question?). One thing to keep in mind is that he used 100% Akadama during the entire process, which I don't think would have held up for 15-20 years, but who knows?



Very exciting! The most anticipated post of 2020! (2021?)

Sergio are the donor and recipient both standard Acer Pamatum? David E. was telling me this weekend that if you use different cultivars to do it (e.g. beni chidori branches onto a vigorous standard Acer P. trunk), it is possible that the graft union will get 'lumpy' over time due to the differences in growth-rates of each 'cultivar' (comparison was made to grafting JWP onto JBP). I've seen a few 10 year old thread grafts (not in David's garden) where it is possible that this is happening (with deshojo and standard Acer P), but it could just have been less-than-optimal initial thread graft work. Any thoughts? I don't have many old-thread grafts in my area to investigate. I also have not been able to find anybody who can confirm if Ebihara experimented with mixing cultivars

I think it is part of the fun, and it's healthy that we get to exercise our noggin. To keep a rootstock from outgrowing the branch intended to be transplanted by peg method, perhaps one ought to use rootstock of smaller caliper?

 

[leatherback]

Would you agree that the "peg" graft is basically a type of approach graft?

Yeah. The nice thing is that because of the peg, it is much more stable once fused