Bonsai Art Shool, "Perspective"

[rockm]

In my thread asking who would be interested in art threads a picture of a group planting was posted up by @rockm. I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here for sake of discussion. It is an awesome piece of art, and worthy of such a perspective discussion.

Here is the planting
View attachment 89969
And @Ironbeaver contributed the following drawing over the image showing the perspective of what he believes the Artist's intentions were of the planting. I believe this as well to be correct... it would make a nice perspective of this planting.

The red lines the vanishing lines... the yellow circle the vanishing point. Which would make the "horizon line" right where the vanishing point or yellow circle is.
View attachment 89970

However, not trying to insult anyone by this... but, judging by the table it rests upon, this is not actually where the "horizon line" or one's eye line is at. Perhaps it is the photo? Again, not trying to insult, just trying to point out for instructional purposes. If not the photo, than the height chosen for the table is much to low, if we are to assume the planting was meant to be viewed from a perspective of Ironbeaver ' s view.

A view if chosen would give the trees in the planting a very tall towering feel. Which seems to be the intention of the design. Perhaps this was not the intention of the Artist, I don't know. But, if it is placed at the correct height, one would either be on a mountain or a hill looking downwards at the planting or a very tall individual... let's say at least 50- 60 feet tall? If not more?

If it is the photo, one needs to of perhaps scooted down when taking the picture. If it is the table... it needs to be raised.

Why?
Imagine yourself standing in nature, looking at this group of trees... in comparison to height, how tall would you think you would be looking at them? Now, examine in the following photo, the actual horizon or eye line... I am on my phone, so sorry for the sloppy lines, but they are in brown.

Do, you think your eye line would be this tall? The horizon line in brown? If the answer is no, then one would see that the perspective chosen for the planting is off. It does not make the trees feel towering and tall, but instead... if an average person's height is somewhere around 6 ft... it would make the trees feel somewhere about 7 feet tall. Which is in all actuality probably not to far from the actual height of the planting, sitting on the table.

So, if the illusion of the trees is to be massive, it is not helped by the perspective angle that it has been chosen for it to be display at. This does not mean that the work is wrong, or the art is not good. It is my opinion, that it's display is not good. Sure I will get some heat for saying it... but this is how perspective works.

If one is trying to create an illusion of reality, the closer one can get to the reality, the better the illusion will be.

Here is the picture with the actual perspective drawn in brown.
View attachment 89971

Now, with this aside...

I wanted to point out a very cool feature that the chosen perspective does do, however, I don't think it was intentional. ..

If one was to examine the smaller trees on the left. What does this perspective do in comparison to the trees on the right?

Seeing it is a downward perspective, it makes them feel small, because we see the tops of the trees. Which works somewhat... you really get the feeling the trees are much more smaller than those on the right.

So, can there be a way, to make this work to one's advantage? Can one design a planting in which one has a perspective of looking up into the really tall trees on the right giving them the feeling of being towering, yet at the same time, splitting the perspective, and having one that looks down on the trees on the left, making them feel small?

Interesting concept... I think one can. What do you think? Perhaps if the horizon line that was chosen to display the piece, was slightly higher than that of Ironbeaver ' s ? It would be a slight stretch of actual human height, but might help with the illusion of the trees being smaller on the left.

It does begin to make one consider what role "perspective" can play in a piece of art such as bonsai. Perhaps one can design such a planting or a tree with these concepts in mind? The purpose if thus thread, was to do just that. So, as we move forward, we will examine this in further detail.

Forgive me, but this is a bit too much of a Western interpretation.

The idea of "vanishing points" and "horizon" are recent introductions to Japanese and Asian arts, mostly brought by Westerners into those societies, then reflected back at them.

Traditional Japanese and Chinese painting deals with perspective in fundamentally different ways. Overlaying a Western "vanishing point" perspective is limiting here. Traditional Japanese painting uses three panels--foreground, middleground and background. The viewer moves through those panes in separate sections. The three may not even be connected visually in a painting...

https://books.google.com/books?id=L...oreground middleground and background&f=false

 

[A Random User]

Forgive me, but this is a bit too much of a Western interpretation.

The idea of "vanishing points" and "horizon" are recent introductions to Japanese and Asian arts, mostly brought by Westerners into those societies, then reflected back at them.

Traditional Japanese and Chinese painting deals with perspective in fundamentally different ways. Overlaying a Western "vanishing point" perspective is limiting here. Traditional Japanese painting uses three panels--foreground, middleground and background. The viewer moves through those panes in separate sections. The three may not even be connected visually in a painting...

https://books.google.com/books?id=LznRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=japanese+art+foreground+middleground+and+background&source=bl&ots=y32AsMyCKh&sig=1LPlo4baICx0am4uVjkRtnpji0M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLm-GO1ZXKAhUHKx4KHbaKBO4Q6AEISzAM#v=onepage&q=japanese art foreground middleground and background&f=false

I understand what you are saying... and as you know I also do Chinese Brush Paintings. I am aware of perspective not being utilized within traditional Chinese or Japanese Art until perhaps just recently. Most brush paintings still do no utilize perspective and I would say that it is perhaps safe to say that a good majority of brush paintings in the future will continue not to utilize perspective. That is to say create images in 3 dimension, with shading.

However, first let me say that Brush Paintings are a two dimensional art, Bonsai or Penjing is not. I went into some detail on post #56 about the importance of perspective, but will continue here... Seeing Bonsai is a 3 dimensional art, and the artist could quite literally walk around it... an artist in china doing penjing a half a century ago, would not of approached and designed a tree in exactly the same way as a painter would of painted a tree. So, yes... Perspective was created by folks in the west. Perspective is a formula to understand what is happening in a 3 dimensional plane. As I mentioned in post #56, it does not matter if one understands it or know about it... they are still working with perspective, due to the fact that an object in 3d has multiple sides.

So, the Chinese artist doing Penjing, would have known that his art is not flat, he would of had to design his tree with the understanding that when he looks at it and establishes a pad of foliage... that this pad of foliage is not flat and onesided as a painting is... it has more foliage and finer branching behind it, and in fact goes away from his view as he observes it.
The concept of foreground, middle ground, background in Japanese or Chinese Art... is still a form of showing perspective and coming to terms with depth. Objects disappearing into the distance or coming towards the viewer.

 

[rockm]

The use of foreground, middleground and background in Japanese and Chinese painting is used to create a sort of three dimensional perspective in a different way.

Bonsai artists developing their skills at the same time as these painters incorporated the same kinds of ideas into their compositions. They didn't skip ahead to western perspectives. They used similar techniques. Look at the land and water penjing done by Quinquan Zhao. The elements (viewed from the FRONT of the composition) overlap in fore, middle and background. Same is true for bonsai when viewed from the designated front--branches have to hang properly to overlap, provide some depth using that overlap, etc.

The idea of 3-d bonsai is a relatively new (And Western) idea. The reason traditional bonsai have a "front" and a "back" is to better stage foreground, middleground and background elements.

All of these developments have parallel in the world of Japanese and Western painting--Research Shin Hanga, Ukiyoe, on the Japanese side. Then take a look at what elements the Western Impressionists took from the Japanese. The mix is very, very similar to what has happened with bonsai.

 

[Anthony]

Rockm and Stacy,

K [ also a Fine Artist /Florence Italy ]
Thinks you might be making this a little complicated.
He uses a simplified Sculptor's technique, more mass and negative space for single trees. With rotation for in the round viewing, but this is
lost with the one eye camera.

As Chinese Ink Paintings go, talking traditional painters Ma Yuan and so on, using also the information by Hu Yunhua and Wu Yee Sun, designing
pleasing to the eye trees is not that difficult.
Trouble is the tree grows on, and the high point of your design is lost in often a few weeks.

So you either slide image, hologram /holograph or exhibit, as the memory fades.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[A Random User]

Let me say first that I am not arguing with you, I agree. We are just having a conversation.

Yes, traditional Brush Painting incorporates foreground, middleground, background. It is a means of showing objects in perspective. Whether the object is a building or scenery. Yes, they are not actually establishing a perspective point, and drawing vanishing lines as is taught when one studies western art, however thus does not matter they are still arriving at the same conclusion. The objects are still vanishing into the scenes in the block prints in the exact same fashion. I am not in front of my computer at the moment, or I would illustrate , that one can quite literally draw the vanishing lines over the top of the block prints and establish the vanishing point and see how the work lines up and see how well the artist has demonstrated their understanding of perspective and how objects within the scene disappear off into the distance.

So, where I see are different views lie is that you are saying they are different, and I am saying they are the same. That they both are means of showing the same thing... perspective. The only difference would be in their approach of one establishing a vanishing point and vanishing lines. Western art still works in foreground, middleground, background. And when one studies western art at a school, they are also taught these different planes within the discussion of perspective. The actual establishing of the vanishing point and vanishing lines, is only a scientific method established to teach students how to establish and show the perspective correctly.

As an artist, whether I paint or do bonsai, sculpt, etc. I work in perspective all of the time. I have been doing it virtually all of my life. So, I don't actually sit and establish the vanishing point and lines, I do not no longer need to, however, if stuck or if I ever wonder why something I have done does not look correct I can establish the point and vanishing lines and see exactly how and where I went wrong. I can as well as I have mentioned do this on top of the block prints and see how well their art lines up to the correct perspective as well.

However, in the end Art will always be about what looks good. Often if one does do a perfect drawing in perspective, it appears to clinical and lacks the faults of human and being natural.

With this said, I do think you have brought up a point that I didn't think to cover with this and that is yes, included in a perspective discussion should be the theories taught by eastern artists. Again, why I am glad we are discussing this here and glad I did not put it in a resource, I am only one person, I cannot possibly cover and understand how all of this can work within bonsai. This type of topic needs discussion and input. Perhaps I am not discussing it correctly... or there is an easier way to discuss it.

I would value any Input you may be able to provide... perhaps you could post up your views of how the eastern view if perspective of foreground, middleground, background works. So, we might get a more rounded view of the subject?
Would appreciate it! A lot of work to do this, I think it is important however and a shame not to.
Thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Rockm and Stacy,

K [ also a Fine Artist /Florence Italy ]
Thinks you might be making this a little complicated.
He uses a simplified Sculptor's technique, more mass and negative space for single trees. With rotation for in the round viewing, but this is
lost with the one eye camera.

As Chinese Ink Paintings go, talking traditional painters Ma Yuan and so on, using also the information by Hu Yunhua and Wu Yee Sun, designing
pleasing to the eye trees is not that difficult.
Trouble is the tree grows on, and the high point of your design is lost in often a few weeks.

So you either slide image, hologram /holograph or exhibit, as the memory fades.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks for the reply!
My whole reasoning for doing this thread was to begin to look at the fundamentals of Art. And how these fundamentals play a role in Bonsai, seeing bonsai is an art.

There is a lot of substance in perspective. .. and perspective I felt is the most important fundamental of art. If a cube is wrong, it does not matter what type of weight it has or what negative space it has surrounding the cube, or even the color. There are quite a few fundamentals of art, that I had planned on posting up separate threads on and going through and discussing each one. So, hopefully if folks want to participate, we will get to doing other threads on the other fundamentals. I started with this one because I felt it was the most important and best place to start at.

So, depending on if folks want to continue... by this I mean they have to join in... I am not going to go through the effort it takes to do this just to talk to myself... I will get to Shape, Form, Line, Weight, Space both positive and negative, Value both highlight and shadow, Color, Storytelling, etc. Because I think all of which can play an important role in Bonsai and again they are already there and one uses them on a daily basis when working with bonsai anyways... might be worth the discussion over how they work.
And "K" can join in the discussion.

 

[sorce]

Sawgrass......

When you get a chance....
I'm ready for one on scale/proportion.

Thanks.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Let me say first that I am not arguing with you, I agree. We are just having a conversation.

Yes, traditional Brush Painting incorporates foreground, middleground, background. It is a means of showing objects in perspective. Whether the object is a building or scenery. Yes, they are not actually establishing a perspective point, and drawing vanishing lines as is taught when one studies western art, however thus does not matter they are still arriving at the same conclusion. The objects are still vanishing into the scenes in the block prints in the exact same fashion. I am not in front of my computer at the moment, or I would illustrate , that one can quite literally draw the vanishing lines over the top of the block prints and establish the vanishing point and see how the work lines up and see how well the artist has demonstrated their understanding of perspective and how objects within the scene disappear off into the distance.

This also has some interesting stuff, particularly the Edo era and Aesthetic Concepts section..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_art


So, where I see are different views lie is that you are saying they are different, and I am saying they are the same. That they both are means of showing the same thing... perspective. The only difference would be in their approach of one establishing a vanishing point and vanishing lines. Western art still works in foreground, middleground, background. And when one studies western art at a school, they are also taught these different planes within the discussion of perspective. The actual establishing of the vanishing point and vanishing lines, is only a scientific method established to teach students how to establish and show the perspective correctly.

As an artist, whether I paint or do bonsai, sculpt, etc. I work in perspective all of the time. I have been doing it virtually all of my life. So, I don't actually sit and establish the vanishing point and lines, I do not no longer need to, however, if stuck or if I ever wonder why something I have done does not look correct I can establish the point and vanishing lines and see exactly how and where I went wrong. I can as well as I have mentioned do this on top of the block prints and see how well their art lines up to the correct perspective as well.

However, in the end Art will always be about what looks good. Often if one does do a perfect drawing in perspective, it appears to clinical and lacks the faults of human and being natural.

With this said, I do think you have brought up a point that I didn't think to cover with this and that is yes, included in a perspective discussion should be the theories taught by eastern artists. Again, why I am glad we are discussing this here and glad I did not put it in a resource, I am only one person, I cannot possibly cover and understand how all of this can work within bonsai. This type of topic needs discussion and input. Perhaps I am not discussing it correctly... or there is an easier way to discuss it.

I would value any Input you may be able to provide... perhaps you could post up your views of how the eastern view if perspective of foreground, middleground, background works. So, we might get a more rounded view of the subject?
Would appreciate it! A lot of work to do this, I think it is important however and a shame not to.
Thanks!

This kind of gets at what I'm talking about. It's involved, but stick with it if you have time.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/ca/7523862.0011.016/--perspectives-east-and-west?rgn=main;view=fulltext
Some key thoughts-- "Sansui paintings very often suggest mist and haze through blank space" "Japanese perspective makes a sharp contrast with modern Western perspective that is based upon a middle range linking the distant and the close"

"From a geometrical perspective, the [Western] painter projecting the viewpoint is placed in front of the picture and his eye is a scientific one watching the scene objectively. In the case of Japanese perspective, the viewpoint of the poet is that of a subject conveying (watasu) his feeling and thought vaguely far away, and his viewpoint can properly be called aesthetic."

Also this from the Japanese Art wiki:
"The diagonal, reflecting a natural flow, rather than the fixed triangle, became the favored structural device, whether in painting, architectural or garden design, dance steps, or musical notations. Odd numbers replace even numbers in the regularity of a Chinese master pattern, and a pull to one side allows a motif to turn the corner of a three-dimensional object, thus giving continuity and motion that is lacking in a static frontal design."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_art

All of this takes some time to get your head around, and to some it's boring or pointless. I believe its worth the effort to understand because some of this remains in bonsai design and always will.

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass......

When you get a chance....
I'm ready for one on scale/proportion.

Thanks.

Sorce

Will start one.
Let me however get through this one first!
Will be to much going on!

 

[A Random User]

I think some folks might be confused...
So, let me run through it very quickly to hopefully bring everyone who might not understand up to speed.

Perspective, is nothing more than how one views an object in 3 dimensions. If one takes a box and positions it where they no longer see any of the sides, just the front, all they see then will be a square. The sides disappear, as in the first photo. Because none of the sides are visible and one only sees the front, this image becomes 2 dimensional, or flat, the box shows no depth, it is just a square.


If one then turns the box where they see more than one side at the same time, they have now established that the box is no longer a square, no longer 2 dimensional, but now has depth. How, does the box have depth? We see the front and now another side, going away from the just the front, or the square. This is illustrated in the next photo.


You will see in this photo that the box now has depth, it is 3 dimensional, it occupies space. A 3 dimensional object not only has the side to side view, but also a front to back view. Because it has a front to back view, the part in the front is closer to our position of where we are viewing the box and thus is bigger. The back of the box is further away, and thus is smaller, going off into the distance from the front. This is perspective. Perspective is how one views an object, in relation to which sides of the object are closer to us and which sides are further away.

Now, if one was to draw a lines from the corners of the box that are closer to us, to the back corners that are further away, the lines should converge inward, if the back of the box is further away. Why? because if the back of the box is further away, it will naturally appear smaller than the front of the box, to our eyes, and thus why the lines have converged.

Now if one extends those lines that were drawn from the front to the back of the box that are converging, at some point, way off in the distance... these points will met. Why? again because they are converging, getting closer together as they go further back. The point at which the two lines eventually meet way off in the distance , is called the Vanishing Point. You will see in the image that where the Vanishing Point ends up that I have drawn another line horizontal, which is label the Horizon Line.

Where the two lines drawn from the box disappear off into the distance, converging, and coming to a single point, called the Vanishing Point, will end up being the Horizon Line. Easy way to think of how this works, is if one looks down a long street going off into the distance, you will see the road getting smaller, the buildings getting smaller the clouds is the sky getting smaller, etc.as they go further and further away and at some point way off in the distance, one will see where they all cease to go on any further, and all converge, the sky meets the ground. This is the Horizon and where they all converge, the Perspective Point on the Horizon.

 

[LanceMac10]

I am reading along, just so you know....
So I figure there are more too.....so people are listening, even if folks like me might not be able to further the conversation. Typing has to hurt more than wiring, so thanks for the effort!!

 

[A Random User]

Now why does any of this matter?
Because Bonsai is a 3 dimensional art... we are not just doing a piece of art on paper. Our tree's have sides to them, our trunk is not flat, it has sides that curve around to the back. Our branches do, our foliage as well, even our pots, stands etc.

So, then if our art has multiple sides and is 3 dimensional, then when we create our art we must then take into account how all these different sides are viewed and interact within the design of our tree. If we have already established with the last post and the square, that having sides to an object, gives the object depth. Due to the fact that the front is going to be closer and the sides are going to naturally go off into the distance, away from our view... then we have also established, that our tree's by the very nature of them being 3 dimensional are going to have "Perspective".

So, then whole reason for having this discussion then is not to try and invent some new approach to doing Bonsai. But instead to examine what is already naturally a part of Bonsai, and understand how it works. Now with that said, I have mentioned before, that Plants are not like a box, they don't often have very easily defined sides, and their shape is not always easily defined. Their shape is in fact more "Free-form"... by this I mean they all are unique and have differing shapes and sizes, and often grow any way they choose. They also have a tendency to have a lot of differing sides, unlike a box. So, it is often not as easy to determine and lay them out and determine what their perspective is, as a box is. So, then one might ask why is this of any importance then?

It is our job as an artist to try and make the best, most interesting tree possible. How one does this is by trying to establish as much depth as possible... by showing as much sides to every thing within the tree as possible, and where each and all these things within the tree reside in relationship to each other. All of this involves Perspective and pertains to Perspective. So, this is what we are trying to do and discuss with this thread. We are trying to examine how and what we do as artist, effects how our art is seen and viewed. Perspective is how we as humans see 3 dimensional objects, and how we come to understand what these object are doing. Are they receding off into the distance, coming towards us, going to the left, to the right, up or down, etc. How we often as well determine what they are doing is not by just examining the object itself, but by also examing it's surroundings.

So, as in the previous post of the Box, where we have learned about Vanishing Points, and Horizon Lines. We will now take the same principles and understandings and apply them to our trees. Before we do, I would like to step back for a moment and say two things I missed in the previous post. The first being that the lines that we drew back from the front of the box and continued back to our Vanishing Point, are called "Vanishing Lines". The second, being a question... Why do we need to concern ourselves with establishing a Vanishing Point and Horizon Line and drawing back lines to it? The answer is, you don't you can just draw the box, or design the tree... All of this merely is just a tool to help work out and show where if one wants to design a box or tree with depth, dimension and with correct perspective how all of this can be done.

Now if we take our tree and do as we did the box before and draw back lines off into the distance, converging until they meet, we too, can establish a Perspective Point and a Horizon Line and utilize the same principles. In the following Picture you will see this... for illustration purposes, I have drawn the tree from slightly to the side, so one can see what is happening. You will see as before the Vanishing Lines, Vanishing Point, and the Horizon Line.


Now, with this said... everything we have discussed so far from the start of this thread, has been discussed around this.

We have discussed, how when displaying, that depending on one's height or choice of height when viewing a tree, will effect where the Horizon Line ends up. Why? This process of establishing all of the Horizon Line, Vanishing Point, Lines etc. is going to completely change on how and from what angle one views the tree. Whether it is side to side, up or down, etc... The view is going to change and thus the way in which the 3 dimensional object and all of it's sides that we spoke of earlier, how they all relate to each other as well as to other objects within the tree and how they protrude off into the distance is viewed. So, in essence... it greatly alters how the tree is viewed. As an Artist, doing the work, you might not want this to happen. Perhaps you have designed the tree to look and be viewed from a certain spot, to show off certain things, etc.

 

[jomawa]

I am confused now... You tell me that this has all gone over your head and that you don't understand it...And then in this post tell me that the reasoning behind perhaps why you don't understand it, is because you haven't yet gone through and read it all.
If this is correct... then I would have to suggest you read it first, then let me know if you still have any problems.

OK, Sawgrass, you woke up Mr Literal, and he's pissed, (actually I'm just frustrated) so look out, cuz here come both barrels. I'm frustated because you're beginning to let me down. I truly thought I had met my match, "there's another person out there that is fanatically detail oriented, a Mr literal, a factual truth seeker, one who's hell bent on good communication and clear understanding, one who's perspective when looking at the forest sees each and every tree, large or small, young or old (even middle aged ones), sees not only the bark but also the ridges and valleys of that same bark, sees the differnt sizes of each grain of sand, the nice rich green of healthy leaves and some here and there with more yellow in them (signifying whatever that does), sees the lava, (cause he's here in SW WA), the granite (and "all" the other indigenous rocks in "this" forest). (That should be enough detailed perspective of the forest.) Now, take that Mr Literal hat ya got in yer hand (in your avatar pitcher) and stick it, uuuh, yeah, put it firmly on your head. (Is it on yer haed yet? Cause if'fen it ain't, don't you dare read the next line, because you've already done that enough, which completely busted up the whole contextual footing of this here lack of co-moonicayshun, (no thanks to you, yeah, I'm dumping our lack of communication back on your shoulders). "I think I've been able to balance what simply went over my head with what made it inside." I wasn't talking about a ball, or stick, or rock, or whatever, splitting up as it passed my head so a portion went in and a portion went "over". I was speaking of the wealth of information as I originally referenced "what you've said in #1 - #12". I don't know how to make it any more clear than bold typing and under-lining the point I was trying to make. I'm sorry you fail to keep your Mr Literal hat on "all" the time but allow me to point out that your quote that I quoted in this quote... Oh, heck with it, 16 lines above (count this line, don't count the empty line), you said "You tell me that this has "all" gone over you're head......." (now ya got me jumping up and down pumping my fists up and down) I did not, I did not, I did not..........................!!!!!!!!!!!!! These book long posts we have sent back and forth are totally the result of an original misquote, miss-communication, or misunderstanding from not taking my original statement litterally and keeping it in the very context (#1 -#12) I originally stuck it in. So, ("If" you still don't get it) "If" you still have you're Mr Literal hat on and go back and re-read literally/critically what I dun toll ya in my replies aboot yer purspektive. OK? I'm done. Sooo, I'm shaking the dirt of this thread off my feet, and probably won't be back here (Oh, I'll be back reading and and re-reading but not replying) at least for a couple years cuzz it'll take that long fer me ta reload, (but all ya'all, by the way did'ja know that's plural for ya'all?, yep, a Texan done toll me that - but I digress, all ya'all other bnutter's I still got some other ammo left).

 

[jomawa]

Now why does any of this matter?
Because Bonsai is a 3 dimensional art... we are not just doing a piece of art on paper. Our tree's have sides to them, our trunk is not flat, it has sides that curve around to the back. Our branches do, our foliage as well, even our pots, stands etc.

Now see, that's what I'm talking about, you dang detail oriented S.O., uuuh, G., yeah, that's it, you dang detail oriented son of a gun. Oooops. OK, I'm really gone this time. (man, a few years sure is a long time!) Dang, every time I see that guy with the hat in hand I get a totally different purspektive than what I youst'a get. "I wonder if that blank stare changes when he sticks that, uuuh, puts that thinking cap on he's haed???"

 

[A Random User]

Sorry, folks I am shutting this one down.
Not going to play games any more here at the Nut. Played to many games here already and it never got anyone anywhere.

I thank everyone who participated! I appreciate it!

 

[brewmeister83]

Sorry, folks I am shutting this one down.
I thank everyone who participated! I appreciate it!

I may not have had anything meaningful to contribute to this thread, but it was an interesting and enjoyable read, and I appreciate the effort you put into it. It is a shame, however, that actual discussion threads about the art we all enjoy here seem to end the same way.

 

[jomawa]

Sorry, folks I am shutting this one down.

I am truly sorry to hear that.

 

[A Random User]

I am truly sorry to hear that.

And in such few words that don't sound like mumbled Gibberish?

The sad part is that it was suggested that I do this as a resource, where people would not be able to comment on it. And I refused to do it as one because, I felt it would be good to hear others opinions and views as well a I hoped it would give others the chance to post their ideas an contribute and thus be a part of the discussion. Mainly because I didn't want it to be like I was some teacher in a classroom, lecturing students.

I even mentioned this at the beginning, with my opening thread post. Which I am sure you probably didn't even read?
Or you might have noticed where I asked everyone to be cool and civilized, so one could keep it open and not have to post it as a resource.

As I have mentioned, quite a few times... it takes a lot of work getting this together. I have either sat on the computer composing images or drawn them by hand all day long just so I can post them in the evening. I am not copying any of this from a book, I am not just a parrot repeating other's words... These are my own. I am not getting paid, just trying to help.

I answered your original questions with sincere answers, if there was still a problem, or an area you didn't understand, cool! I would be more than willing to help you. Just act like a civilized human and ask them. Don't play games with me, I have way to much on my plate to sit around talking nonsense.
Thanks.

 

[YukiShiro]

Before you shut it down.

when you have you horizon line and vanishing point, and then drew out the vanishing point lines, you see the tree actually looks like it's going everywhere and does not form a coherent unity, you make adjustments and boom! tree looks tied together in its design. Now can there be more than one vanishing point from one angle in a bad tree design that causes the tree to appear unbalanced and not tied together in its design? bear with me I know nothing of artistic design principles

I've read some of it if not most you have posted in this thread, I don't think you should let others derail you so easily boet! you have a lot to offer and the fact that you put so much into these just goes to show what kind of a person you are, you've got so much hurdles in your life atm but still you find it in yourself to try and help others and you put so much effort in. I applaud you SIR!

Best regards
Herman

 

[markyscott]

Sorry, folks I am shutting this one down.
Not going to play games any more here at the Nut. Played to many games here already and it never got anyone anywhere.

I thank everyone who participated! I appreciate it!

Please don't. I've personally got a lot out of this thread and really appreciate the effort that you've gone through to make this thread meaningful. I've looked forward to every post.

Scott