Bonsai Art Shool, "Perspective"

[crust]

Anyone want to throw their tree up and see what happens? Would prefer tree's a little further along... not trying to be mean, just for demo sake, would be easier to see what your vision is and how it lines up... maybe it does... maybe it does not. Maybe it will bring out something cool you didn't see, or maybe you will just say that is a load of Cr@p! Who Knows!!!

OK--here goes---

 

[Cadillactaste]

OK--here goes---

You had me at hello...going to follow along now to see where this goes. Your composition intrigues me.

 

[A Random User]

OK--here goes---

The Perspective Point in the second photo is where your Horizon Line, or Viewer's Eye line is according to this photo.
How do you feel about it's Height?

 

[crust]

Thanks for your work Stacy. I guess I feel fine about the height of the PP. It is interesting analysis. The thing, like so many displayed bonzo ( and other stuff), is always photographed imperfectly, usually from too high up, well, the non-professional ones anyway. I look at my pics and they are rarely aligned perfectly and the base its sits on, or just the surroundings, takes command of the perspective. I did notice on the S-Cube super-tree bonsai photo, the perspective lined one, that the angle of receding edges of the pot do not align with your perspective lines yet seems a driving variable with most other derived PP--can you explain this?

 

[Djtommy]

I did notice on the S-Cube super-tree bonsai photo, the perspective lined one, that the angle of receding edges of the pot do not align with your perspective lines yet seems a driving variable with most other derived PP--can you explain this?

I think the scube tree isnt placed perfectly parallel with the table but its quite hard to see with the red blanket. But probably its that.

 

[A Random User]

Thanks for your work Stacy. I guess I feel fine about the height of the PP. It is interesting analysis. The thing, like so many displayed bonzo ( and other stuff), is always photographed imperfectly, usually from too high up, well, the non-professional ones anyway. I look at my pics and they are rarely aligned perfectly and the base its sits on, or just the surroundings, takes command of the perspective. I did notice on the S-Cube super-tree bonsai photo, the perspective lined one, that the angle of receding edges of the pot do not align with your perspective lines yet seems a driving variable with most other derived PP--can you explain this?

Thanks for the reply!
And no problem about doing the work. My thoughts if interested when doing the work were as follows... First, yes the Horizon Line height is not to bad. I like how the Perspective Point actually ends up on the little tab one would wrap the cord around. What this does is it makes it kinda subconsciously the focal point, because everything is point to it Perspective wise. Which is ok, but if there was a way to somehow work the composition to make it where the point somehow ended up on the angel statue, I think it would be better. Not sure how one could do this, but food for thought...

The Horizon Line height could be a tad bit lower, which would give the tree a bit more of a feeling of height. However, one of the main issues one is going to always face with your composition is going to be the vacuum cleaner. The problem is that this is an everyday item that every viewer seeing your piece knows what it is. So, one automatically comes to terms with it's height and thus associates the tree as being the same height. So, the illusion of the tree being very tall is blown. A viewer looking at it will never come to terms with the tree being tall.

Not, trying to trash your work here, just trying to explain how the choice of choosing a man made object has the persona that will always give a piece right off the back a sense of scale. So, something to consider when choosing such objects.

Now, with this said... I have in Photoshop looked at what happens when one removes the vacuum cleaner, and just sees the tree. And the conclusion I came to was that in fact the tree does look a lot taller and plays the role if a real tree, thus creating the "illusion", however... the tree on it's own is not really strong enough of a composition as it currently sits to stand on it's own. The biggest thing I found, was that it lacked the interest that with the vacuum cleaner it posses. So, I can see why the choice was made to combine the two.

Again, not trying to insult the work, just trying to offer up as much as an unbiased logic as possible, with actual reasoning and logic behind what is being said in so far as the discussion of Perspective is concerned.

As to my own personal views regarding the tree... Here is an instance where one is taking the piece of Art, beyond just rules and basic fundamentals of Art, which is good. With this piece of art... the predominant feature above everything else is the "Story" it tells. Which above everything else in Art is the most important feature. Why?

Often in Bonsai, what happens is that it's practicioner's seem to be obsessed with the basic in's and outs of creating the art. We are concerned about how one treats the material and not so much as to what the "story" of the art is... I understand some of the reasoning behind which, but will not get into it here... but, will say in no other Art really is this done, where how one treats the material is of more importance than what the Art is telling us.
One does not do this when they walk into a gallery and see a painting, a sculpture, etc... we don't look at the way in which an Artist has done their brush strokes, or chiseled a piece of stone. Often if this is done, it is secondary, if that... we see the image and the story then if we like it, then perhaps we will step closer and examine how the work was done. We don't go wow! Look at those brush strokes, let me now understand the story.

The story is something I feel in Bonsai, especially with the teaching of Bonsai takes a back burner and is either taught after the fact, or perhaps not at all. Again, I perhaps understand why, folks are just concerned with trying to learn the art and not why to do the art. At, some point in time, however one does need to begin to come to terms with the why, or they will never proceed to the next level and will always remain a student studying the art.

Sorry, I know this is a long read, but it goes to the heart of the piece and is important if one is to understand and come to terms with the piece...

So, let's be frank... some are going to hate the piece. Why? Because, to them they are still analyzing the tree in regards to it's in's and out's... they are viewing the tree as a student still studying the art. So, they are still looking at the chisel marks and brushstrokes, and judging the piece accordingly. However, this piece as I have said earlier, goes beyond this, to the "story", and then really should be judged on this merit then

So then, if the piece is telling us we must look beyond the rules and basic fundamentals of doing the art, and we are left with having to judge the piece according to the Story... does the Story work?

I know this was all discussed with the Thread regarding it, that I believe Walter posted... so, I will not repeat this. I will just say that the pairing of the Bonsai and the vacuum cleaner, thus makes one examine their relationship and why they are together. It makes one question what this is and why they are together... I think it does this well... however, I am not sure it gives the answer though. I think the piece is a good one, I understand why it was chosen to be in the Cup, I am glad it was... I do as a viewer of the Art want more clarification and some more reason as to why?
Thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Sorry, forgot to discuss the other question of the Cube tree...
I lined up both in two different instances, the table and the pot, which did change the Perspective slightly...

I noticed that the tree's pot seems to actually have a little bit of a curve to it. So, I think this actually be a human making the pot and firing issue? Not sure?

I also found the sane on the left hand side of Crust ' s stand he has his tree displayed on... their seems to be a curve in the wood of his stand. Can this perhaps effect the actual positioning of the Perspective Point? Yes, but seeing the precise precision is not as relevant, I am not sure that it plays much of a role.

 

[bumblebee]

Great thread. I am reading along.

Libby

 

[brewmeister83]

Anyone want to throw their tree up and see what happens? Would prefer tree's a little further along... not trying to be mean, just for demo sake, would be easier to see what your vision is and how it lines up... maybe it does... maybe it does not. Maybe it will bring out something cool you didn't see, or maybe you will just say that is a load of Cr@p! Who Knows!!!

Ok, I'll bite!

The examples we've seen involve finessing and perfecting the lines and unifying the design of a fairly "finished" tree... But since the vast majority of my trees are many, many years away from nearing completion (like several others here), here's a couple pics I've done with future design in mind as to how I want to grow out the tree...

First off, here's the tree as it appeared this past year with main branching selected to be grown out, picture taken at angle I wish to pot it in the future:


And here's a quick rendering I did ages ago with some hypothetical branching - my original plan was to sculpt massive amounts of uro using the cut branch stumps at the base of the trunk, creating a visual feature that would draw the eye down the trunk. I also wanted to create some "tension" utilizing the already present right-to-left motion of the trunk by having the tree lean left but have the bulk of the foliage grow right like the tree was struggling to stay upright. This combined with the hollowed out trunk would give the impression of an ancient, massive apple tree - there are many on old farmland around me which share these characteristics:


So here's my take on my original design regarding the things discussed here, feel free to correct me if I'm completely off the mark.

Regarding horizon line & vanishing point, it seems the design follows what I wanted, which is to have the feeling everything is reaching towards the right...


But at the same time the majority of the tree "pulls" back towards the deadwood feature at the base (which also appears to lay approx. on the horizon line) The only issue I have with this is the area indicated by the blue arrow... while the rest of the roots and branching seem to radiate away from the "center" point - that section seems a little horizontal and static. Should the branching be lifted so it too flows back down to the base or is it fine as is?



Am I on the right track or am I seeing things? Thanks in advance!

 

[LeonardB]

Thanks for the reply!

We are in fact looking down on the tree in the last image. And yes perhaps "dignity" is a word to describe Emotionally how this feels? Some other words I can think of would be "Young" or "New".

Why does it give this impression?

Because, often objects that are placed below our eyesight in which we then have a view of looking downwards on, feel small. Like a young child or a family pet. And with children and pets, they are often dependent upon others for their existence.

A tree viewed in this type of perspective, does not give the Emotional feel of being old, or having grandeur.

Often this mistake is made time and time again, no matter the skill level of the Artist. We see photos taken by those wishing to seek help do this all the time. Yesterday, I saw images posted on FB from a professional photographer hired to take photos of trees at one of the recent big shows, in which this perspective was chosen to photograph the tree. At shows, that we all have attended in which trees are being displayed on stands to small or on slabs etc... in which they are being shown with this perspective. Then there are the folks who have a very large tree, that think because of it's size they need to place the tree in this type of perspective. This is not correct... if my eyesight when looking at you large tree ends up about half way up the trunk or more, you should reconsider. Large tree fine... but large trees tower over us. You will give a better feel of grandeur if they do.

Again, this is your art that is being shown, your vision, don't let this happen. You have taken the time to do all the hard work. Show the vision you have for the tree.

Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful?

Thanks for the reply!

We are in fact looking down on the tree in the last image. And yes perhaps "dignity" is a word to describe Emotionally how this feels? Some other words I can think of would be "Young" or "New".

Why does it give this impression?

Because, often objects that are placed below our eyesight in which we then have a view of looking downwards on, feel small. Like a young child or a family pet. And with children and pets, they are often dependent upon others for their existence.

A tree viewed in this type of perspective, does not give the Emotional feel of being old, or having grandeur.

Often this mistake is made time and time again, no matter the skill level of the Artist. We see photos taken by those wishing to seek help do this all the time. Yesterday, I saw images posted on FB from a professional photographer hired to take photos of trees at one of the recent big shows, in which this perspective was chosen to photograph the tree. At shows, that we all have attended in which trees are being displayed on stands to small or on slabs etc... in which they are being shown with this perspective. Then there are the folks who have a very large tree, that think because of it's size they need to place the tree in this type of perspective. This is not correct... if my eyesight when looking at you large tree ends up about half way up the trunk or more, you should reconsider. Large tree fine... but large trees tower over us. You will give a better feel of grandeur if they do.

Again, this is your art that is being shown, your vision, don't let this happen. You have taken the time to do all the hard work. Show the vision you have for the tree.

Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful?

Thanks for the reply!

We are in fact looking down on the tree in the last image. And yes perhaps "dignity" is a word to describe Emotionally how this feels? Some other words I can think of would be "Young" or "New".

Why does it give this impression?

Because, often objects that are placed below our eyesight in which we then have a view of looking downwards on, feel small. Like a young child or a family pet. And with children and pets, they are often dependent upon others for their existence.

A tree viewed in this type of perspective, does not give the Emotional feel of being old, or having grandeur.

Often this mistake is made time and time again, no matter the skill level of the Artist. We see photos taken by those wishing to seek help do this all the time. Yesterday, I saw images posted on FB from a professional photographer hired to take photos of trees at one of the recent big shows, in which this perspective was chosen to photograph the tree. At shows, that we all have attended in which trees are being displayed on stands to small or on slabs etc... in which they are being shown with this perspective. Then there are the folks who have a very large tree, that think because of it's size they need to place the tree in this type of perspective. This is not correct... if my eyesight when looking at you large tree ends up about half way up the trunk or more, you should reconsider. Large tree fine... but large trees tower over us. You will give a better feel of grandeur if they do.

Again, this is your art that is being shown, your vision, don't let this happen. You have taken the time to do all the hard work. Show the vision you have for the tree.

Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful?

Can we treat viewing a cascade form as a downward perspective? And in some presentations where the foliage is draped over deadwood or a rock formation, isn't the scale used to create the illusion to fool the eye in to thinking you are looking down on a much larger scene?