Bonsai Art Shool, "Perspective"

[GrimLore]

do however feel like sometimes I am "Shooling" gravel into a big pothole in the road here at B-Nut... so perhaps it is not a mistake?

I find your threads to be useful and see that many enjoy them. I usually participate only when I think I have some helpful input but I could not resist joking about the misspelling of school
Now get back to the subject! Good stuff!

Grimmy

 

[Cypress187]

I haven't read everything, but those graphics are very nice man.

 

[A Random User]

I haven't read everything, but those graphics are very nice man.

Thanks, I appreciate it!
And the taking of the time to post!
When you get a chance, check out what I have written, a lot to nibble on!

 

[Cypress187]

Thanks, I appreciate it!
And the taking of the time to post!
When you get a chance, check out what I have written, a lot to nibble on!

I skimmed it, I allready have knowlegde / experience with perspective because im a 3d artist (where perspective is kinda important). I will most defenitly look it up again if im stuck in a project.

 

[A Random User]

I skimmed it, I allready have knowlegde / experience with perspective because im a 3d artist (where perspective is kinda important). I will most defenitly look it up again if im stuck in a project.

Cool!
Do, you do 3d work on the Computer?
Reason why I ask is that I use to do a lot when I worked in the Film Industry, and in Animation... Mostly we used Maya, and 3d Studio Max. I grew up working as a kid in my father's architectural firm using Autocad, so wasn't to far of a jump.

 

[Cypress187]

Cool!
Do, you do 3d work on the Computer?
Reason why I ask is that I use to do a lot when I worked in the Film Industry, and in Animation... Mostly we used Maya, and 3d Studio Max. I grew up working as a kid in my father's architectural firm using Autocad, so wasn't to far of a jump.

Yeah i use 3d studio max for the base model, and detail / sculpt it in ZBrush.

 

[A Random User]

Hope everyone's Holidays were good and hope every one stayed safe and hopefully didn't eat to much!

Thought I would pick up back where I left off...

I believe I was questioning if everyone understood about Perspective and what we had discussed so far? So, to play catch up...

At the beginning of the thread, I mentioned that perspective is how we see and differentiate objects in life. They allow us to determine where the objects lie in relation to other objects, allow us to determine their height, if they are going away from us as when one looks down a street and sees buildings, sidewalk, street etc. all moving away from the viewer, telling them they can proceed down the street, that it is open space to move into... Or, if an object is protruding towards us such as a street, sign, and umbrella, or a branch from a tree limb, and we will need to carefully maneuver around it, so as to not end up coming into contact with it, and getting hurt.

When objects are not correctly in Perspective, they can trick the mind into perceiving something is different than it really is... that perhaps it appears as if something is going away from the viewer, when instead it is doing just the opposite. We all have seen pictures or images where the creator of the work has deliberately design the piece to do just that, they through understanding how Perspective works altered the reality of the Perspective so one appears to see something different than what is really happening, and object appears to be going off in the distance, when in fact it is doing just the opposite, or vice versa. But, in order for this "illusion" to work... the Perspective still must be correct, but just the opposite. If the Perspective is wrong... then the "Illusion" does not work. When one is not trying to trick the viewer, and creates something where the Perspective is wrong... it does not work either and thus the object appears to be not correct.

Earlier we showed how working with a square, by adding Perspective we created a cube. If the Perspective is not correct, the cube would not be representative or look like a cube at all. It would appear wrong, which would in turn create confusion.One would ask why if it is suppose to be a cube, it does not look like one?

In the following image, to better illustrate the point, I decided to use an rectangle bonsai pot seeing this is something hopefully everyone here would know what it is! So, if one looks at the very top pot, you will see an image that looks a lot like how a rectangle bonsai pot should look like. The next one down, appears off, and thus wrong, because the back is actually bigger than the front. The Perspective is wrong. If objects appear smaller as they move away from us, than the back of the pot, should resemble the first pot, and should be smaller then as it moves away. The last pot, appears wrong as well, due to the back right side being taller. It does not represent correct perspective either.



So, then if Perspective helps determine what is happening with an object as mentioned before... this perspective being wrong, just confuses the viewer, telling them something is not right.

Now with that said, often in life there are objects that a don't appear to conform to perspective. These objects may have a shape that is not rigid like a square and instead their shape is perhaps more "Freeform"... By this I mean these objects do not stick to a certain type shape or recognizable pattern, like a square does. A good example of these type of objects are what we work with in Bonsai... a plant, or tree. Everyone of them has a unique shape, size, pattern, etc. Often they don't seem to adhere to normal Perspective rule, because they might have a branch or bit of foliage jutting out that does not conform to perspective... so their shape would appear to dictate that Perspective in their case does not apply.

It does... and I will explain how. If one looks at a tree, the branches coming towards the viewer, as well as the foliage closer to the viewer, will always appear bigger in size than those going away. So, even if the tree has a shape that might not always appear to conform to perspective, it still does... Why? because a tree is not a one dimensional thing. It is and object that has many sides, and all of those sides, go off in many directions. Some towards us, some away... perspective as we mention earlier, helps us determine which ones are doing what, in relationship to the position of the viewer. In common terms one often hears this being referred to as "Depth". How far an object is away from another object can be compared, and it's depth determined... Ie. there is a little bit of depth, in objects closer to each other, a lot of depth in objects further away.

Why, then is Depth important in Bonsai?
The answer.. is because our trees are not one dimensional as mentioned earlier... and we don't want them to be. Bonsai is a 3 dimensional art. Thus as an Artist, it is our job to try and give as much depth to our trees as possible. Why? because, we are trying to mimic life. Objects that have life, have lots of depth, and objects that have little depth, seem flat and have no life. Depth adds interest, because there is more to see, we can see more than just a single side.

 

[Geo]

OK, up to speed with your posts. Even had an"ah ha!" moment. I may not read your posts immediately, but I do get to them eventually. You are never "playing to an empty hall" around here, so don't think it.

 

[A Random User]

So, then the goal and purpose of this thread was to not only just examine how Perspective works, but how then we could possibly apply this perspective, and if one even could.

I posted drawings and some photos and discussed, how things like the height one's viewer sees your tree, can vary the look/feel of the tree, thus affecting your vision and story. I explained how this might work, and how it could be used to an advantage, how it could work as a disadvantage.

I then went on to begin to discuss how one could use perspective when styling their tree, adding more drawings to demonstrate how this could be done. To not only help with correcting some of the issues raised by the height of the tree one wished to show the viewer, but also to show how one could give the appearance of what raising or lowering the viewer height might do, but without doing it. This being achieved through how one wires and establishes their padding. Are we seeing the underside, therefore giving an appearance of looking up into the tree, or vice versa.

I then went on to show how I felt one could also use perspective in their approach to the overall styling of the tree, and through the tree's design. In which I included more drawings, showing perhaps how this could be done... I wanted to pick up here before moving on and discussing more about perspective. With the drawings I posted showing how one could design a tree using it, I mentioned that by doing so, It would actually help one figure out perhaps where to position branching, and foliage, thus helping with the design. I also, mentioned that it might help to establish depth and harmony within the design. I believe this to be true... however, as mentioned in my post right before this one, That tree's fall into a category where they do not stick to a certain type shape or recognizable pattern, like a square perhaps does. That they are "Freeform", and that everyone of them has a unique shape, size, pattern, etc.

Reason for me saying this... is that I am not trying to propose or suggest a type of formula that is going to allow one to just be able to invent awesome trees by doing them with the aid of using perspective. A tree as mentioned, in nature is going to not adhere to any rule one tries to conform it too, just because they are "freeform" and grow like they grow... However, on the flip side... Bonsai is an Art. It is humans creating the Art, and humans that are viewing the Art, and humans like and understand the harmony that Perspective brings. Let us not forget that "perspective" is a method that humans created, to understand and deal with how the world works!

Let's see how with actual trees we could perhaps put some of this to work.

The following trees are mine, they are photos I have taken and altered in Photoshop with the assistance of perspective, thus creating victuals.
I have not done the proposed perspective work, but after seeing the results, I believe I will. First up is a Literati Buttonwood.



In these first two images I have not done any work to transform the tree digitally. First photo is the tree, second with perspective lines drawn in red and a vanishing point established in yellow. The vanishing point we have previously established is where the "Horizon Line" would be, or Eye line. One can tell that this was where the photograph was taken, judging by the pot. This is a very old image of this tree from quite a few years back before I really began to understand all of what we are now discussing... and one can clearly see that the photo is taken way to high, thus establishing the horizon line to high. This is a perfect example of what not to do, and why one needs to get the height they want the viewer to see the tree right. Horizon Line is so high that it gives the feel of looking down on the tree thus making it look small. Not what we want.

I figured I would post it first so we could see the difference. As far as designing aspect is concerned, let's except for this discussion that this is the correct height and see how one can work and design the tree with perspective.

So one will see that a lot of the design of the tree actually already line up pretty good! Remember, we just established from the pots edges the vanishing point, by drawing lines up and seeing where the two came together. The trunk lines up really nice... Only issues really are some of the deadwood. The biggest being the one coming off of the right side and it's angle. I did however adjust a couple of other points as well.
So, in the Second set of images... one will see the tree's virtual, design through using the perspective and the changes made that didn't work with the initial design. What do you think?

I would make these changes... I think they are good and really improve the look of the design. The biggest change being the right deadwood branch, which I brought down to match the perspective, really helps add direction and flow and works very well with the foliage and padding. Can you spot any other changes?

The bottom lower branch still does not adhere to the perspective design. It does not have too.. again, there is no rule here. One always will need to go with what inevitably looks good.This is merely a tool to help assist in creating a better tree.

 

[Geo]

Top left foliage pad moved up slightly and brought into line.

 

[A Random User]

Let's look at another example...

This one is the Juniper that was straight as an arrow and that I split the trunk into two and bent into the shape it is now. The picture in the tree has just received it's first initial style and needs some growing in. In this instance, how I established the perspective point was through the following... First thing I knew was as I have mention before that if one has a tree that is mostly one sided... in order to balance the tree one is going to have to place the perspective point to the opposite side of where the weight is to counterbalance, thus centering the tree. Next when doing a cascade... one will want to put the perspective point below the rim of the pot. Why? because this is the point of the cascade, to give the feel that it is hanging off of where a on a cliff it anchors onto. The rim in this case acts like the top of the ledge. The ledge/rim then being higher, gives the feeling that it is heavier and holds more weight, as a mountain would feel, due to it being higher. It in turn gives the tree a more airy feel. Lastly, I determined then it's exact placement, by following the line of the trunk down. Following this down, and establishing it at this point, then brings the trunk into correct perspective and allows it to work with the overall design. The trunk is very predominate, and tell the action or story of the tree.

Let's look at the pictures...


The first two photos obviously are the tree before any changes in Photoshop and show the tree as it currently sat. In the first photos the perspective actually again works pretty well. The biggest issue I see where it does not work is with the lowest branch. This branch goes off at a wrong angle. I could keep it as is... but, to be honest I don't think I was every completely satisfied with it.

In the second set of photos, one will see the new virtual create with the perspective. One will also see how with not much effort the bottom branch has now be positioned to work within the perspective.

What does one think?

For me, this adjustment adds greatly to the feel of the overall tree and is a great improvement. Before, the branch gave a feeling of reaching outwards, now it is more of a downwards reach, greater adding to the story and feel I am trying to give to the tree, that being a cascade. It also works the opposite way, and acts as an arrow pointing back to the perspective point, thus creating an imaginary circle within this area, between the branch, the pot, the trunk, and the foliage, keeping the viewer's attention right where I would like it... on the split trunk I created. Before, the branch actually seemed to act as an arrow taking one's attention and driving it off to the right, and away from the tree. Also, because the branch is no longer straight, it is not as "hard" feeling and has less weight. We will discuss this hopefully soon in another thread I plan on doing about the power of lines and the weight they imply. As far as the new design, I would do this, and plan too.

 

[A Random User]

In this juniper one will notice that again I chose to work with the layout of the trunk... mainly due to the fact that the pot it currently is in is a grow pot. The eventual pot will resemble perhaps more of a scoop or slab type planting. In this case, my perspective point is not down below the rim of the pot... reason being, that I think it would be better to show this particular tree with a higher horizon line than that of a normal cascade, even though it could be argued as one. So, why now the change in where the placement of the perspective point in regards to cascade?

Has to do with story, and the tree's story. As an artist... Story trumps every rule! It is the most important thing... yes rules and fundamentals should always apply when applicable. However, story and telling a story is the whole reason for doing art in the first place. You as the artist are through a particular medium, in this case Bonsai... trying to express your views of reality and the way you see the world. Rules, are only guidelines to assist you in telling your story.

Now with that said... you still must understand your audience, and their need to want to adhere to the established rules that have been set forth through generations of doing, because as I mentioned before, we humans created the rules to better understand and come to terms with what we see happening in life. So, then if the story is to trump the rules... then the story needs to be well thought out and executed... No because I said so's... or this is how I see it, take it or leave it... One needs to have a reason, and set up through then the tree's display a feasible reality that needs no explanation. The viewer themselves need's to get it and by themselves!

So, in the case of this particular tree... the story I as the artist am wanting to tell is that this is a tree that was growing on a ledge, or near the edge of a cliff, or on a hillside and something has happened, where the trunk is for the most part laying flat near the ground,or leaning on a boulder and it extends over the edge where it then cascades. So, then to tell this story... I think it would be better to place the horizon line slightly above the base of the trunk. This helps to establish that this part is down below us. As mentioned, the pot will end up being something that mimics and adds to this story. Lastly because the tree's is largely one-sided, has a lot of weight and it's trunk protrudes rather far out, I choose to establish the vanishing point back at where the base of the trunk originates, and in line with the leaning trunk, seeing that this is the action line of the tree and tells the story.

Here is the tree...


This tree has only had a first style done to it and still needs plenty of growing in yet to establish the overall design. So, in this instance, doing this exercise of perspective, helps me to establish a future path forward with the tree. So, I am glad I did this! In the first two photos you will see the tree as it exist currently. It lines up pretty good... biggest issue beside the future development it needs, that I see... is that the left deadwood branch is out of perspective. Which fine... it does not need to be. Problem is that if one examines it, then they see that I plan to have foliage pads lower than it, and the deadwood branch towards the end actually ends up pointing up and out. This action takes the viewers eye away from where I would like it to go. I want their eye to not stop here and look away from the tree, but instead, to continue down further to examine the pad of foliage below.

In the second set of photos, one will see that this branch has been adjust in the virtual to better adhere to the perspective. This works well and I like it. I plan to make this change... It no longer sends one's eye flying off to the next tree, but instead points down to the foliage I wanted folks to see. Want to add one more thing that does not have much to do with perspective, but instead regarding "lines" within a tree. A subject I plan on creating a separate thread on soon... so keep an eye out for it! That is the line of this particular deadwood branch is very much seen in the original photos... Because there is so much visible, it then carries a lot of weight... Too much weight! It actually competes with and draws the attention of the viewer's eye away from the trunk and it's zig zag motion. The trunk is more important in this case... seeing that we already established that it is the feature that tells the tree's story. The deadwood branch then needs to be made to feel less weighty. This is why I decided in the virtual to try and establish a pad of foliage that actually breaks up this line. This is the perfect example of how great this can work. What it does is that it actually stops one's eye from continuing from the trunk down the deadwood branch, and instead one's eye now hits a stop caused by the foliage and want to then continue up the trunk.

Also, the Deadwood branch is not any shorter... yet it appears so... because the viewer is no longer able to run their eyes down the entire length of it. So, the "illusion" is that the branch is much smaller than it actually is, even though it is the same size.

I really like this new virtual design... even though not really much has changed. What has however, adds drastically to improve the flow within the tree. Really goes to show you how great of an effect one branch and a deadwood one at that! Can play in the design of a tree.

 

[A Random User]

One last one... will just let the pictures tell the story.
Tree is a Buttonwood, that fell off the benches last winter, and had most of it die... recently began to establish a new path forward.
First pictures shows this first new restyle. Second, I believe a very cool path forward.

 

[A Random User]

 

[jomawa]

one's view is that of looking up into the tree... giving the feeling of it towering over one.

Here is a view of a tree in such a perspective. One will see that it has a feeling of being a tall tree.
View attachment 90113

If one then splits the difference between the Horizon Line being higher, and lower... then one ends up with a Horizon Line in the middle. As in the following image.

Here is a View of a tree with the Horizon Line centered.
View attachment 90114

Any thoughts ???

"Any thoughts ???" First, I realize I ripped this quote from it's context, but I'll continue. As to what you've said in #1 - #12, I think I've been able to balance what simply went over my head with what made it inside. I'm not responding trying to be witty, not trying to play the devil's advocate, not trying to just be silly. Thank you for this utter detail into perspective/observation. I think I can even grasp that when it comes to displaying a bonsai, that display, as difficult as it may be to pull off, should give the same perspective as the artist's intendended pespective (that is if they were even aware their bonsai should have/has a perspective).
So, to what I think I observe. My first impression/thoughts of your first tree in #13 (I think it's 90113) was that the horizon line is located about where the first bushy branch on the right meets the trunk (where the trunk begins a turn to the left). Don't know whether I'm confusing it simply with a major focal point, but as much as I mentally try to force that line down to coincide with your lower horizon line, I can't. Was going to draw a middle horizon line on my monitor but the test dot was difficult enough to remove so refrained from the line. Am somewhat familiar with trigonmetry so don't know if there's an automatic computation between my brain and my eyes, taking in to account my virtual position to that two dimensioal tree... I know perspective is subjective, (yet not). In art, applying the golden mean, utilyzing numbers from the fibonacci sequence, odd numbers vs even, tends to greatly inprove perspective. "My gut feeling says that horizon is more middle, so OK, I'll read on." And the next thing you talk about is the mid horizon line. "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, that's about where it should be on that first tree." Well, enough said. Just my observation. Back at'cha. "Any thoughts?"

 

[A Random User]

"Any thoughts ???" First, I realize I ripped this quote from it's context, but I'll continue. As to what you've said in #1 - #12, I think I've been able to balance what simply went over my head with what made it inside. I'm not responding trying to be witty, not trying to play the devil's advocate, not trying to just be silly. Thank you for this utter detail into perspective/observation. I think I can even grasp that when it comes to displaying a bonsai, that display, as difficult as it may be to pull off, should give the same perspective as the artist's intendended pespective (that is if they were even aware their bonsai should have/has a perspective).
So, to what I think I observe. My first impression/thoughts of your first tree in #13 (I think it's 90113) was that the horizon line is located about where the first bushy branch on the right meets the trunk (where the trunk begins a turn to the left). Don't know whether I'm confusing it simply with a major focal point, but as much as I mentally try to force that line down to coincide with your lower horizon line, I can't. Was going to draw a middle horizon line on my monitor but the test dot was difficult enough to remove so refrained from the line. Am somewhat familiar with trigonmetry so don't know if there's an automatic computation between my brain and my eyes, taking in to account my virtual position to that two dimensioal tree... I know perspective is subjective, (yet not). In art, applying the golden mean, utilyzing numbers from the fibonacci sequence, odd numbers vs even, tends to greatly inprove perspective. "My gut feeling says that horizon is more middle, so OK, I'll read on." And the next thing you talk about is the mid horizon line. "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, that's about where it should be on that first tree." Well, enough said. Just my observation. Back at'cha. "Any thoughts?"

Thanks for the response!
First let me say as well thanks for letting me know you feel this is going over your head. I don't mean this as an insult of course... I mean it helps me understand that there are folks out there reading this that perhaps do not understand, and I need to perhaps figure out a better way of addressing this subject in a way that is easier to come to terms with. Perspective is not necessarily a difficult thing to grasp, I think it is perhaps something that one is not going to perhaps be exposed to it if one has not studied art. I personally find it kinda bizarre that it is not being discussed much in Bonsai, seeing it is an art, and thus my reasoning for doing so... and obviously I am trying to do my best to explain it in the easiest way I can... but, seeing that for the most part you are the first person out of almost 800 people who have viewed this thread, to tell me it is going over your head, I did not know. Which kinda sucks, cause had I known, then perhaps I would have been able to address this at an earlier point in time... obviously, it's not your or anyone's fault... however, the whole reason for having thus discussion is to try and learn. If one does not speak up and say they don't understand, I am not sure how any of this is going to help.

So, Let me first start by saying that Perspective is not something one can do or not do, you don't get a choice here... and it is not subjective. Perspective is already a part of Bonsai. Why? Because Bonsai is an Art that is 3 Dimensional. Which obviously means it has more than one side. Perspective, is nothing more than an explanation of how and why an object with multiple sides is viewed.

If an object is going away from us into the distance, it will look a certain way... if it is coming towards us it will look another way. This is perspective... what properties the object holds that is telling us that they are either moving away, or coming towards us.

So, I am not trying to propose any type if specific belief here... I am not trying to say it is this way or that way. I merely trying to show folks that Bonsai already has these properties, whether one knows it or not... and that when working on Bonsai, they are working in perspective, whether they know or not.

I am not trying to invent some new way of doing bonsai... in fact, just the opposite, if it is already there I am merely trying to point out that if it is... perhaps then one might like to understand how it works.

Thus is the opposite end of the spectrum from Fibonacci Sequence... and in fact I would like to distance myself as much as possible from the logic that perhaps I am trying to show or propose an idea such as it. My reasoning behind this, is that for me this train of thought veers off into left field. By that, I mean it is has more to do with assumptions of what people interpret, rather than what is physical and scientific understanding of the reality of what an object is really doing.

Now, with that said, the only area where one might be able to possibly question this that I have discussed, is when I have talked about the Emotional side of what perspective might tell us... although, I might refute this by saying, even when I have... it has still been with using physical attributes of an object to discuss such feelings. I will give you an example. .. if I say that looking down on a tree, makes it feel small and not grand like looking up at a tree... these emotional attributes I have a signed to the physical properties are still based in a physical reality. So, yes if one is looking down on something it is going to feel small... why, because it is smaller than the viewer's eye line and they have to look down on the object.

Let me finish by saying, I feel as if folks think i am trying to put forth some kind of bizarre new philosophy here... to make them change their ways... nothing can be further from the truth. This is why I chose to do this on a forum instead of a resource. If bonsai already has perspective, and no one seems to be discussing it, then perhaps we could discuss it? I have merely tried to explain what perspective is and how it works... I have asked folks to examine it and perhaps between them and myself figure how we as Artist can use it to better our art. This is all. Sadly, there have only been a few who have chimed in... and to be honest I don't really understand why not more. This subject is as of equal importance to wiring, if not more. No point wiring and moving a branch, if one does not understand what impact it will give to the art.

I have showed some of the ways I think we can utilize it... have heard a couple more from other folks... but, there is so much more that could be discussed and learned. I am not saying what I have posted is correct, perhaps there are flaws... cool let me know.

Now to the flaw you mentioned regarding the two hand drawn images I did, I will agree they might perhaps have an issue. I now believe this was what perhaps @Adair was questioning earlier and I somehow didn't get...

The image of the pine with flat padding and with the horizon line placed in the center of the tree is not actually correct. The purpose of this illustration, was to show how that when one picks a horizon line close to center of the tree, that often the image of the tree will be straight on and thus appear flat. As is evident of the view of the pads, which are straight on and look flat.

What is not correct in this image is the pot... it is drawn straight on and in fact one should be seeing the top of the pot and it's sides protruding back and see the soil. Without this it gives the appearance of the horizon line being not correct. I apologize, I paint these using Chinese brushes and sumie ink, all day then post at night. Your post is the first time I re-examine it and found the error.
Thanks again for taking the time to post, I appreciate it! I hope I addressed the issues you raised!

 

[A Random User]

Any other folks lost? No problem if you are!
Just trying to figure if I should continue or not?
Perhaps one is at a loss as to how I managed to design the trees in the photos I recently posted using perspective? How I established the Perspective point, how I chose it location, why I chose its location, can one just pick a point? etc...
Thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Or, perhaps we could go about this another way... perhaps if one is interested, they could post a photo of a tree and we could discuss it in relationship to perspective?
Would prefer trees a little further along then just starting off, just so we can see what the actual design is, and perhaps we can critique it and see where it works, where it doesn't and perhaps why it still works, even though it does not maybe conform to the perspective of the tree. Perhaps something was done to force the perspective of the tree? To make it appear as though the tree looks to be doing something else than what it is really doing? Which might of been intentional by the artist... to give a particular appearance?

 

[jomawa]

you feel this is going over your head. I mean it helps me understand that there are folks out there reading this that perhaps do not understand, and I need to perhaps figure out a better way of addressing this subject in a way that is easier to come to terms with. Perspective is perhaps something that one is not going to perhaps be exposed to it if one has not studied art. it is an art, and thus my reasoning... and obviously I am trying to do my best to explain it in the easiest way I can... but, seeing that for the most part you are the first person out of almost 800 people who have viewed this thread, to tell me it is going over your head, I did not know. it's not your or anyone's fault... however, the whole reason for having thus discussion is to try and learn.

Perspective is not something one can do or not do, you don't get a choice here... and it is not subjective. Perspective is already a part of Bonsai Because Bonsai is an Art that is 3 Dimensional. Perspective, is nothing more than an explanation of how and why an object with multiple sides is viewed.

I merely trying to show folks that Bonsai already has these properties, whether one knows it or not... whether they know or not.

I am not trying to invent some new way of doing bonsai... perhaps one might like to understand how it works.

Thus is the opposite end of the spectrum from Fibonacci Sequence... and in fact I would like to distance myself as much as possible from the logic that perhaps I am trying to show or propose an idea such as it. My reasoning behind this, is that for me this train of thought veers off into left field. By that, I mean it is has more to do with assumptions of what people interpret, rather than what is physical and scientific understanding of the reality of what an object is really doing.

Now, with that said, the only area where one might be able to possibly question this that I have discussed, is when I have talked about the Emotional side of what perspective might tell us... although, I might refute this by saying, even when I have... it has still been with using physical attributes of an object to discuss such feelings. I will give you an example. .. if I say that looking down on a tree, makes it feel small and not grand like looking up at a tree... these emotional attributes I have a signed to the physical properties are still based in a physical reality. So, yes if one is looking down on something it is going to feel small... why, because it is smaller than the viewer's eye line and they have to look down on the object.

Let me finish by saying, I feel as if folks think i am trying to put forth some kind of bizarre new philosophy here... to make them change their ways... nothing can be further from the truth. This is why I chose to do this on a forum instead of a resource. If bonsai already has perspective, and no one seems to be discussing it, then perhaps we could discuss it? I have merely tried to explain what perspective is and how it works... I have asked folks to examine it and perhaps between them and myself figure how we as Artist can use it to better our art. This is all. Sadly, there have only been a few who have chimed in... and to be honest I don't really understand why not more. This subject is as of equal importance to wiring, if not more. No point wiring and moving a branch, if one does not understand what impact it will give to the art.

I have showed some of the ways I think we can utilize it... have heard a couple more from other folks... but, there is so much more that could be discussed and learned. I am not saying what I have posted is correct, perhaps there are flaws... cool let me know.

Now to the flaw you mentioned regarding the two hand drawn images I did, I will agree they might perhaps have an issue. I now believe this was what perhaps @Adair was questioning earlier and I somehow didn't get...

What is not correct in this image is the pot... I hope I addressed the issues you raised!

Woah, woah, woah!!! WOW!!! What I have here is a failure to communicate. Before I say more let me just say that if you think anything I say here is at all negative, that is the total opposite of my intentions. Hopefully, any whimsy I attempt here will be accepted as possitive truth (well, considered as such). Like, while I'm editing your "apology" for your input going over my head, I'm thinking, "man sawgrass, you're wind-ier than I could ever even attemp to be, (and it seems so natural too). I gather you, like me, are an absolutely fanatically ultra detail oriented idividual. (Let me just say welcome to this world, where so many people haven't the first iota of detail in them - but I digress.) What a totally misguided apology on your part. I am truly sorry for any anguish, or thoughts to change your methods, that I may have caused by the statement it's going over my head, and please allow me to attempt to put it into perspective. (Hey, that's a good one - but I digress). OK, to me what you are communicating here is at the level of a master thesis and I truly believe you are communicting it quite well. I have not read through this whole thread even one time, nor have I read #'s 1 - #13 a second time in order to truly grasp whatever it is I don't understand you saying regarding what you are sharing with us, (I don't even begin to know what it is I don't understand. Many people may not know what I mean by that but I believe you know exactly what I'm saying). I know there are bnuts at the level you are sharing about perspective, and hopefully many will also understand perspective's importance for each of them, but keep in mind there are some that never will, ever, (never!). And you know it! It is said we learned it all in kindergarten so I must still be pre-kindergarten, (at least I now know not to pull up/dig up any vine maples less than 1/8" diameter, well, maybe even bigger than that - yeah, I digress). Not sure what level I'm really at in this bonsai thing because my mindset has been changed with the research I've done, yet I have to wait for spring to dig up the more mature vine maples, so until I do I can't "prove" what I think I know, so since I haven't put in practice "soil is everything" or "the trunk is everything" or "this is everything" or "that is everything", I confess I"ve taken somewhat of a ho - hum attitude after reading well into perspective authored by you and that I simply described my reaction/grasp of what you were saying by the fist description that came to mind, that it is over my head. (Over my head, not because of any lack of communication on your part, but over my head because of my not going back at a time when I am ready to attempt to grasp/incorporate "perspective" which you are sharing. Decades ago, while in high school, I had mechanical drawing and I have also been schooled on that thing called the vanishing point, have taken thousands of photos, and have been involved in college yearbook design and layout, and I have designed and built various pieces of furniture using the golden mean and other basic design principles, so I have at least a basic grasp of design and perspective, but for what you are saying to not go over my head I'll need to read and reread to totally digest the point (all the points) you're making.
My focus was simply on a different perspective of the horizon line of the tree in question in post #13 when I said some of what you're saying is over my head. I was interested in feed back on the horizon line. And I got that also in your profuse apology. I have only read through that explantion of the pot perspective briefly and while editing your apology, so I will go back and re-read your comments on the pot picture, and I thank you for that explantion because it lets me know I am still only a half bubble out of plumb and not totally whacked. (By the way, the editing I did on your apology started with the intention of emphasizing and keeping the important stuff but (I confess) it got so windy I simply deleted whole paragraphs toward the end and didn't go back and check my editing prior. Just saying, it may not make any sense at all reading through it now.) I want to assure you, I don't believe there is any problem in your communicating "perspective", a thing that is always there whether we "see" it or not. Thank you for your input, and I'm very sorry for my flipant over my head comment.

 

[A Random User]

Woah, woah, woah!!! WOW!!! What I have here is a failure to communicate. Before I say more let me just say that if you think anything I say here is at all negative, that is the total opposite of my intentions. Hopefully, any whimsy I attempt here will be accepted as possitive truth (well, considered as such). Like, while I'm editing your "apology" for your input going over my head, I'm thinking, "man sawgrass, you're wind-ier than I could ever even attemp to be, (and it seems so natural too). I gather you, like me, are an absolutely fanatically ultra detail oriented idividual. (Let me just say welcome to this world, where so many people haven't the first iota of detail in them - but I digress.) What a totally misguided apology on your part. I am truly sorry for any anguish, or thoughts to change your methods, that I may have caused by the statement it's going over my head, and please allow me to attempt to put it into perspective. (Hey, that's a good one - but I digress). OK, to me what you are communicating here is at the level of a master thesis and I truly believe you are communicting it quite well. I have not read through this whole thread even one time, nor have I read #'s 1 - #13 a second time in order to truly grasp whatever it is I don't understand you saying regarding what you are sharing with us, (I don't even begin to know what it is I don't understand. Many people may not know what I mean by that but I believe you know exactly what I'm saying). I know there are bnuts at the level you are sharing about perspective, and hopefully many will also understand perspective's importance for each of them, but keep in mind there are some that never will, ever, (never!). And you know it! It is said we learned it all in kindergarten so I must still be pre-kindergarten, (at least I now know not to pull up/dig up any vine maples less than 1/8" diameter, well, maybe even bigger than that - yeah, I digress). Not sure what level I'm really at in this bonsai thing because my mindset has been changed with the research I've done, yet I have to wait for spring to dig up the more mature vine maples, so until I do I can't "prove" what I think I know, so since I haven't put in practice "soil is everything" or "the trunk is everything" or "this is everything" or "that is everything", I confess I"ve taken somewhat of a ho - hum attitude after reading well into perspective authored by you and that I simply described my reaction/grasp of what you were saying by the fist description that came to mind, that it is over my head. (Over my head, not because of any lack of communication on your part, but over my head because of my not going back at a time when I am ready to attempt to grasp/incorporate "perspective" which you are sharing. Decades ago, while in high school, I had mechanical drawing and I have also been schooled on that thing called the vanishing point, have taken thousands of photos, and have been involved in college yearbook design and layout, and I have designed and built various pieces of furniture using the golden mean and other basic design principles, so I have at least a basic grasp of design and perspective, but for what you are saying to not go over my head I'll need to read and reread to totally digest the point (all the points) you're making.
My focus was simply on a different perspective of the horizon line of the tree in question in post #13 when I said some of what you're saying is over my head. I was interested in feed back on the horizon line. And I got that also in your profuse apology. I have only read through that explantion of the pot perspective briefly and while editing your apology, so I will go back and re-read your comments on the pot picture, and I thank you for that explantion because it lets me know I am still only a half bubble out of plumb and not totally whacked. (By the way, the editing I did on your apology started with the intention of emphasizing and keeping the important stuff but (I confess) it got so windy I simply deleted whole paragraphs toward the end and didn't go back and check my editing prior. Just saying, it may not make any sense at all reading through it now.) I want to assure you, I don't believe there is any problem in your communicating "perspective", a thing that is always there whether we "see" it or not. Thank you for your input, and I'm very sorry for my flipant over my head comment.

I didn't take from your previous response that you were being negative at all.

I am however confused myself now... You tell me in the previous post that this has all gone over your head and that you don't understand it...
And then in this post tell me that the reasoning behind perhaps why you don't understand it, is because you haven't yet gone through and read it all.
If this is correct... then I would have to suggest you read it first, then let me know if you still have any problems.