Bonsai Art Shool, "Perspective"

[A Random User]

Before I began, I wanted to say a couple of things...

The first being, that it has been suggested that instead of doing this in an open forum, that instead it would be better as a "Resource". Perhaps it would ? But, the problem I see with me doing so, is that I feel a "Resource", lacks the interaction that a normal discussion might have. My goal with this is not to try and teach... There are way to many teachers in my opinion in Bonsai in the first place. Instead, to be honest... I really am merely wanting to "share" my experiences, that I have found to be true in Art, and hopefully through examining this Art, perhaps I and maybe others, can establish some new experiences?

This is not all about me... anyone can contribute as well as compose a new thread under the heading of Bonsai Art School. All that I ask personally, is that to keep this type of discussion "open", where one does not have to hide it within a "Resource" is that we try and keep it to the subject at hand and be respectful. It takes quite a bit of effort to compose, and would hate to see it go south. Thanks!

One more thing, As mentioned in the thread questioning whether we should have this discussion... I mentioned I might write a book on this approach within Bonsai. I think I will be moving forward on this. I think some would find it very useful... So, I hope to be composing it along side of posting here, and will share what I can from it, when and where I can.

Let's begin and start off with a simple introduction...

Why do we create Art? The answer is simple... it is a way for us to express ourselves both Physically, and Emotionally. It allows for us to show through a creative means the way we see and view the world. Art then has two sides that both need examining in order to understand and complete the picture.

First, there is the Physical properties. It's attributes one can easily examine, measure, and touch. In bonsai this might be a branch placement, or a trunk, or even the style one has chosen and performed on a tree. Then there is the Emotional properties, which is is harder to examine, because it is what these physical attributes may portray in regards to feelings. And sometimes these feelings can be interpreted in different ways, and at the same time can vary from one observer to the next. Easiest example I can give is that if one has a tree that is straight, tall and reaching for the sun... Then one might say that this tree gives one the feeling of being Proud. Why? Because trees want to grow tall and reach into the sky to get sunlight. Now if one has a tree that it's trunk is bent, and hunched over, and it's branches are falling back towards the ground... Then one might say that this tree gives one the feeling of weeping or being sad. since something has happened to not allow for the tree to reach high into the sky.

As we move forward with the discussion, and within Bonsai itself... I think we should consider how what we do physically effects the Emotional side as well. Reason for me saying so, is that together, I feel is where a "Tree's Story" is to be found. So, I will be examining the role of both when discussing Art.

 

[A Random User]

Perspective

What is it? In the Physical Properties, and in a short answer... it is how we see things in life. By this I mean, every object we come in contact with on a day to day basis, has dimension and depth. It is the dimension and depth, that let us understand how tall and object is, how wide, how close or far away it is and where it lies within it's surroundings. So hope fully in the instance of it being a speeding car, we can get out of the way, or in the instance of it being a step, we will not trip. Light hits the objects differently, giving them variations of shading value, which our eyes take in, and our minds interpret. These variations of shade, allow us to determine the step or the car.

As far as Emotional Properties, one might say that one's Perspective is their "thoughts". And how these thoughts may relate to everyday occurrences in life. So, if one asks, "what is your perspective, regarding the speeding car" you might say, that it makes you mad, because someone could have gotten killed. The reasoning behind this train of thought, would be that from experience, one often hears of people being hurt by speeding cars.

Seeing that everything we see in life, as well as think about regarding life, has dimension... and seeing that Art is the creative interpretation of this life... perspective would then play a big role in how we do the art. The more we can come to terms on how to create a piece of art that has this dimension, the more realistic and "life-like" this art will be.

Putting these into Practice

In Art we use the method of using a Horizon Line and a Vanishing Point.

A simple way of thinking about them is if one imagines watching a sunset over the ocean. The point where the ocean touches the sky, is the Horizon line and the vanishing point being the sun, with it's rays radiating out in all directions hitting objects.

In a two dimensional piece of art, such as a painting... the horizon line and the vanishing point can vary depending on where the artist establishes it. However once it is set and the artist paints the picture, it will always remain no matter how one looks at the picture, the same as the artist established it.

In a 3 dimensional piece of art, however the rules are totally different... the Horizon Line is established, by the line of sight in which the viewer views the art, so the viewer's eye line. Why? The view of the art and what the observer sees will change, seeing that it is has physical dimension, depending on how and what angle the art is viewed from. It is not only possible then for varying ways to look at one's art, but also varying ways to thus interpret this art. So, when one works with a 3 dimensional media to establish art, one has to take such things into consideration, as to not have one's work interpreted in a way they had not intended.

Let's see how this works...


So in the first image, one has the Horizon Line and the Vanishing Point. This type of layout is called a Single Point Perspective. Due to the fact that it has only one vanishing point. There are other types of perspective such as Two Point and Three Point perspective, that will will touch on later... But, there is a good possibility, that as one examines how to make use of perspective in Bonsai, that they will find the majority of what they do will consist within a Single Point Perspective.



So to demonstrate why we want dimension in our art, we will look at the following image... It is a square. No other planes, such as a side, top or bottom are seen. The square is flat looking... it lacks depth and dimension. If the light was to hit it, it would not show any variations of tonal value, for only one side is visible. This is absolutely what we don't want in art. Why? It is boring and lacks interest, and because it has none of the depth that we say exists in life it therefore has no life. Therefore when designing our art, we want to try and establish as much depth and life as possible.

This Square is representative of what a straight on view of a cube would look like.



One more thing before moving on, often one of the biggest mistakes I see personally in Bonsai, is the designing of a tree in what I would like to call the "Wallflower" pose... Years ago, before my time even... people who attended a dance, but didn't dance, and instead chose to hang out along the sides, were called Wallflowers. They didn't participate, didn't have any interaction and were not the life of the party. Don't let your tree become this... Where one designs their tree with all the branching going side to side with a straight on view, or chooses a front to their tree that gives you this straight on view. You don't want your tree to look like the square, you want your tree to look more like the following images, where on can see multiple sides at one time.

So in the following picture, one will see that by just moving the square to not a completely straight on view of it, but instead off to the side, or up and down. One can then begin to see that the square now takes on dimension and depth. I has more interest and thus has more life.

So, in any type of 3 dimensional art, we never want to place our art where it is meant to be viewed straight on. Why? Because it flattens it out and thus is no longer 3 dimensional. It is our goal then when working in a 3 dimensional media, to try and provide to the viewer as many different sides of every object within our art as possible.

In the following picture one will see that by moving the square to the side, and connecting the vanishing point lines back to the single point on the Horizon Line, one now established and views the squares sides.








Now that we have established how the Perspective works and how we want to see objects and their varying sides... Perhaps we can move on to the role of how the placement of the Horizon Line works, and what effects it has on an object's perspective.

Earlier, one will remember that I mentioned in 3 dimensional art, the Horizon Line is determined by the Viewer's Eye Line. Are they standing up when they view your work, squatting down ? Is your art being staged and displayed at to high of a level, to low? What about those photos you are taking to show off your work? To ask questions about?

If your intention is to show your art from a particular angle, and at a particular height... then this needs to be determined for the viewer. Why? Earlier we discussed how through perspective one can give meaning to a piece of art. How Emotionally art can be interpreted. If the perspective the viewer sees is not the one intended, then the message one is trying to portray will not be the message the viewer takes away. Don't leave this up to chance. Show what your message is, you worked hard to establish it!

In the following picture one will see a the image of the square below the horizon line. Good thing, is that here we do have the dimension and see more than just one side... However, there is a problem here. And in fact this is a perspective we almost never would want to see or tree in... Why?




Here, perhaps this might help. The following picture is a drawing of a tree in the same exact perspective. Can anyone tell me why we would not want to perhaps use this placement of Horizon Line in relation to our object, in this case being our tree?

Second question... Time we discuss as well the Emotional side. What message does a tree in the perspective send the viewer? What story does it tell?

Lastly, can one think of a scenario in which using a perspective such as this might work to one's advantage?



That's it for tonight... Will pick back up when I can.
Have the Holidays and it is busy.

 

[Anthony]

Stacy,

before we start one point to note --------- frequently trees that are tall in the forest are much shorter alone in full sun. No need to get tall to reach for light.
So anyone with experience would look at at a normally tall tree, now short and say it's from an area of full sun, and as such would be an individual.
Acceptable.

I also ask in your well drawn image, if or why are we looking down on the tree, since viewing is normally looking across to the root / trunk zone, and
this leaves the tree with a sense of perhaps, dignity.
Looking up into the crown is maybe a sense of awe and respect.
Which is probably what you wanted to point out.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[DougB]

Art 001. Thanks and look forward to more.

 

[A Random User]

Stacy,

before we start one point to note --------- frequently trees that are tall in the forest are much shorter alone in full sun. No need to get tall to reach for light.
So anyone with experience would look at at a normally tall tree, now short and say it's from an area of full sun, and as such would be an individual.
Acceptable.

I also ask in your well drawn image, if or why are we looking down on the tree, since viewing is normally looking across to the root / trunk zone, and
this leaves the tree with a sense of perhaps, dignity.
Looking up into the crown is maybe a sense of awe and respect.
Which is probably what you wanted to point out.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks for the reply!

We are in fact looking down on the tree in the last image. And yes perhaps "dignity" is a word to describe Emotionally how this feels? Some other words I can think of would be "Young" or "New".

Why does it give this impression?

Because, often objects that are placed below our eyesight in which we then have a view of looking downwards on, feel small. Like a young child or a family pet. And with children and pets, they are often dependent upon others for their existence.

A tree viewed in this type of perspective, does not give the Emotional feel of being old, or having grandeur.

Often this mistake is made time and time again, no matter the skill level of the Artist. We see photos taken by those wishing to seek help do this all the time. Yesterday, I saw images posted on FB from a professional photographer hired to take photos of trees at one of the recent big shows, in which this perspective was chosen to photograph the tree. At shows, that we all have attended in which trees are being displayed on stands to small or on slabs etc... in which they are being shown with this perspective. Then there are the folks who have a very large tree, that think because of it's size they need to place the tree in this type of perspective. This is not correct... if my eyesight when looking at you large tree ends up about half way up the trunk or more, you should reconsider. Large tree fine... but large trees tower over us. You will give a better feel of grandeur if they do.

Again, this is your art that is being shown, your vision, don't let this happen. You have taken the time to do all the hard work. Show the vision you have for the tree.

Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful?

 

[A Random User]

Art 001. Thanks and look forward to more.

Thanks for the reply!
Will post more as soon as I am able

 

[Vin]

I'm not at all educated in art but will comment on your questions. "Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful"? One instance would be the use of accent plants when displaying a tree. I would think we would want the viewer to look down on the accent plant when the tree is in the correct viewing position. That would place the tree in the dominant position and draw one's eye to it.

P.S. If you write a book don't use Sawgrass as the Author.

 

[A Random User]

I'm not at all educated in art but will comment on your questions. "Any thoughts as to where and how one could use a downward perspective ? How it could be useful"? One instance would be the use of accent plants when displaying a tree. I would think we would want the viewer to look down on the accent plant when the tree is in the correct viewing position. That would place the tree in the dominant position and draw one's eye to it.

P.S. If you write a book don't use Sawgrass as the Author.

Thanks for the reply!
This is true, we want the tree to be more dominate than an accent plant. It helps to establish a pecking order so to speak. The tree is of more importance than the accent plant.

However, one might, perhaps find a way to make the positioning of the accent plant higher than the tree, and make it work. It would break from what is normally conceived as the rules of display, so in order for it to work it must be well thought out and allow for folks to be willing to accept it.

I think in an instance such as this, the story one is trying to portray would be the underlying factor. Thus the story is more important than the established rule of the display.

I can think of an instance where one might be able to pull this off... if one was displaying a mountain pine or a tree to this effect, and decided to use as an accent plant perhaps a piece of tundra.

You might get some bad stares seeing that it takes so long for tundra to grow, as well, it might not survive in a lower climate... but, in theory, tundra grows at a higher elevation than do trees, so if one's story was to show a more accurate setting of a mountain pine in nature, this might work. There will certainly be some explanation required... which begs the question of whether or not art should have to be explained. This decision would be up to the viewer.

 

[A Random User]

Any other takers on the question of how a perspective such as the one in the last pic of my opening post, my be used and in what type of scenario?

I will give you a hint... if we already established that a tree under this scenario might make the tree look small, when perhaps could this be used to an advantage?

 

[markyscott]

Any other takers on the question of how a perspective such as the one in the last pic of my opening post, my be used and in what type of scenario?

I will give you a hint... if we already established that a tree under this scenario might make the tree look small, when perhaps could this be used to an advantage?

Spitballing here, but how about in a shohin display? Part of the interest in them is the small size of the trees - perhaps accentuating it bit through the perspective you created in that picture would add to that notion of smallness.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Spitballing here, but how about in a shohin display? Part of the interest in them is the small size of the trees - perhaps accentuating it bit through the perspective you created in that picture would add to that notion of smallness.

Scott

Thanks for the post!
It would indeed help. Often if one perhaps wanted to make a tree appear smaller, than yes, presenting a tree in this downward perspective would do this!
If it was one's goal to make a shohin look even smaller, than this would accomplish it.

However, the problem one might need to take into consideration, is that in everyday life we usually have a tendency to understand that tree's are usually bigger than us. So, if the audience who is viewing your tree has this notion of a tree being bigger than a typical human, it would be an area one would have to carefully consider. If one is looking down on a tree... then obviously the viewer gets the notion they are taller. If the goal was to make the tree look smaller, perhaps one might not go to such an extreme downward perspective. Perhaps instead just a little? So, the tree still appears taller than a human, yet not as perhaps tall as it really is?

I am going to contradict myself with what I wrote earlier, but such as life... Often with very large bonsai, they have a tendency to look large. If the goal of doing bonsai is to make a tree feel smaller and compact, perhaps one could give the tree a slightly downward perspective? Giving the illusion of appearing smaller, even though it is the same size. This might work well if on has a tree that still needs some branching, or has a lot of negative spacing between branching. A slightly downward view will appear to tighten up these areas.

Now, I know earlier I mentioned that tall trees are often placed to low at shows. I still believe this to be the case, but here is a scenario where this might play to one's advantage.

Lastly, if one has a tree with flat padding, a slight tilt of the view downward helps establish greater dimension. One is not actually looking at the pad completely straight on... remember how I mentioned this is a not to do earlier, we want depth. .. It also works the opposite way, a slight tilt up.

 

[A Random User]

In my thread asking who would be interested in art threads a picture of a group planting was posted up by @rockm. I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here for sake of discussion. It is an awesome piece of art, and worthy of such a perspective discussion.

Here is the planting

And @Ironbeaver contributed the following drawing over the image showing the perspective of what he believes the Artist's intentions were of the planting. I believe this as well to be correct... it would make a nice perspective of this planting.

The red lines the vanishing lines... the yellow circle the vanishing point. Which would make the "horizon line" right where the vanishing point or yellow circle is.


However, not trying to insult anyone by this... but, judging by the table it rests upon, this is not actually where the "horizon line" or one's eye line is at. Perhaps it is the photo? Again, not trying to insult, just trying to point out for instructional purposes. If not the photo, than the height chosen for the table is much to low, if we are to assume the planting was meant to be viewed from a perspective of Ironbeaver ' s view.

A view if chosen would give the trees in the planting a very tall towering feel. Which seems to be the intention of the design. Perhaps this was not the intention of the Artist, I don't know. But, if it is placed at the correct height, one would either be on a mountain or a hill looking downwards at the planting or a very tall individual... let's say at least 50- 60 feet tall? If not more?

If it is the photo, one needs to of perhaps scooted down when taking the picture. If it is the table... it needs to be raised.

Why?
Imagine yourself standing in nature, looking at this group of trees... in comparison to height, how tall would you think you would be looking at them? Now, examine in the following photo, the actual horizon or eye line... I am on my phone, so sorry for the sloppy lines, but they are in brown.

Do, you think your eye line would be this tall? The horizon line in brown? If the answer is no, then one would see that the perspective chosen for the planting is off. It does not make the trees feel towering and tall, but instead... if an average person's height is somewhere around 6 ft... it would make the trees feel somewhere about 7 feet tall. Which is in all actuality probably not to far from the actual height of the planting, sitting on the table.

So, if the illusion of the trees is to be massive, it is not helped by the perspective angle that it has been chosen for it to be display at. This does not mean that the work is wrong, or the art is not good. It is my opinion, that it's display is not good. Sure I will get some heat for saying it... but this is how perspective works.

If one is trying to create an illusion of reality, the closer one can get to the reality, the better the illusion will be.

Here is the picture with the actual perspective drawn in brown.


Now, with this aside...

I wanted to point out a very cool feature that the chosen perspective does do, however, I don't think it was intentional. ..

If one was to examine the smaller trees on the left. What does this perspective do in comparison to the trees on the right?

Seeing it is a downward perspective, it makes them feel small, because we see the tops of the trees. Which works somewhat... you really get the feeling the trees are much more smaller than those on the right.

So, can there be a way, to make this work to one's advantage? Can one design a planting in which one has a perspective of looking up into the really tall trees on the right giving them the feeling of being towering, yet at the same time, splitting the perspective, and having one that looks down on the trees on the left, making them feel small?

Interesting concept... I think one can. What do you think? Perhaps if the horizon line that was chosen to display the piece, was slightly higher than that of Ironbeaver ' s ? It would be a slight stretch of actual human height, but might help with the illusion of the trees being smaller on the left.

It does begin to make one consider what role "perspective" can play in a piece of art such as bonsai. Perhaps one can design such a planting or a tree with these concepts in mind? The purpose if thus thread, was to do just that. So, as we move forward, we will examine this in further detail.

 

[A Random User]

So, moving along...

If we have established that a Horizon Line or Eye line higher up, gives the Emotional feel of a tree being small, seeing one is looking down on the tree.
Then the opposite would be a Horizon Line lower down... This kind of perspective would give one the Emotional Feel of the tree being large, or grand.
For the tree is taller than one's Eye line, therefore then one's view is that of looking up into the tree... giving the feeling of it towering over one.

In this type of perspective one sees a lot of the branching, and structure of the tree. Because one is not looking straight on at the tree, it adds interest and dimension, especially when this has differing values of high light, shading and shadow. However, if one chooses a Horizon Line that is too low, one will see more of the branching and it will play a bigger role in the design of the tree then the foliage, so this needs to be taken into consideration. If one's goal is to show a very large towering tree, then this would not be a problem, seeing that if one was standing under a towering tree, and looked up, what would they see? Branches... and the underside of these branches. If one's goal was to show not as tall of a tree, then perhaps one might not want to show it from such a extreme angle looking up, but instead more of a compromise, where one is just slightly looking up into the branching.

Here is a view of a tree in such a perspective. One will see that it has a feeling of being a tall tree.



If one then splits the difference between the Horizon Line being higher, and lower... then one ends up with a Horizon Line in the middle. As in the following image.
A Horizon Line in the middle is going to give the most Straight on View... And what did we say earlier regarding straight on views? They are boring and lack interest visually. Often any padding done on the tree, will look flat, and one dimensional. Due here again to looking at the padding straight on from the side. So, it is best really when doing Bonsai, or any other art for that matter, not to choose this for the view of your art. If one, for some reason likes the view form this angle, I would still suggest, showing the tree slightly higher, or slightly lower. So, one isn't looking exactly straight on at the tree.

Here is a View of a tree with the Horizon Line centered.


While we are here... I would like to cover another way one can still play with the perspective of the tree, and how one views the tree, without actually raising, or lowering the height at which one displays the tree. Yet still give the "illusion" of appearing either taller, or smaller. This is trough how one styles the tree... through wiring. If one wanted to give an appearance of a taller tree, one could wire the branching and foliage slightly upward. Obviously then if one wanted it to appear smaller one could wire down. You will see in the following images how this can still work quite effectively to accomplish the same thing as the tree's display height.



Can anyone think of a scenario in which one might choose this route of wiring and styling the tree with a particular perspective in mind to give a taller/smaller feel, instead of choosing to just raise the height, in which one views the tree?
Any thoughts ???

 

[A Random User]

In the mean time why we wait for some responses to the question asked at the end of the previous post...

I thought it might be interesting to see what everyone thought of the following image.
It is quite possible to design and wire a single tree with all of the different angles of Perspective shown so far. Doing this could really give the illusion of a much bigger tree.

 

[markyscott]

I wanted to point out a very cool feature that the chosen perspective does do, however, I don't think it was intentional. ..

If one was to examine the smaller trees on the left. What does this perspective do in comparison to the trees on the right?

Seeing it is a downward perspective, it makes them feel small, because we see the tops of the trees. Which works somewhat... you really get the feeling the trees are much more smaller than those on the right.

So, can there be a way, to make this work to one's advantage? Can one design a planting in which one has a perspective of looking up into the really tall trees on the right giving them the feeling of being towering, yet at the same time, splitting the perspective, and having one that looks down on the trees on the left, making them feel small?

Interesting concept... I think one can. What do you think? Perhaps if the horizon line that was chosen to display the piece, was slightly higher than that of Ironbeaver ' s ? It would be a slight stretch of actual human height, but might help with the illusion of the trees being smaller on the left.

It does begin to make one consider what role "perspective" can play in a piece of art such as bonsai. Perhaps one can design such a planting or a tree with these concepts in mind? The purpose if thus thread, was to do just that. So, as we move forward, we will examine this in further detail.

Catching up - been a busy few days. Sorry for reaching back to an older post, but here's a thought - when you're in the mountains, you often see forests viewed from above, but the trees close to you are viewed from a much different perspective. Kind of like in this photo:



I wonder if the downward perspective could be used to create such an impression of viewing the forest from elevation.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

So, moving along...

If we have established that a Horizon Line or Eye line higher up, gives the Emotional feel of a tree being small, seeing one is looking down on the tree.
Then the opposite would be a Horizon Line lower down... This kind of perspective would give one the Emotional Feel of the tree being large, or grand.
For the tree is taller than one's Eye line, therefore then one's view is that of looking up into the tree... giving the feeling of it towering over one.

In this type of perspective one sees a lot of the branching, and structure of the tree. Because one is not looking straight on at the tree, it adds interest and dimension, especially when this has differing values of high light, shading and shadow. However, if one chooses a Horizon Line that is too low, one will see more of the branching and it will play a bigger role in the design of the tree then the foliage, so this needs to be taken into consideration. If one's goal is to show a very large towering tree, then this would not be a problem, seeing that if one was standing under a towering tree, and looked up, what would they see? Branches... and the underside of these branches. If one's goal was to show not as tall of a tree, then perhaps one might not want to show it from such a extreme angle looking up, but instead more of a compromise, where one is just slightly looking up into the branching.

Here is a view of a tree in such a perspective. One will see that it has a feeling of being a tall tree.
View attachment 90113


If one then splits the difference between the Horizon Line being higher, and lower... then one ends up with a Horizon Line in the middle. As in the following image.
A Horizon Line in the middle is going to give the most Straight on View... And what did we say earlier regarding straight on views? They are boring and lack interest visually. Often any padding done on the tree, will look flat, and one dimensional. Due here again to looking at the padding straight on from the side. So, it is best really when doing Bonsai, or any other art for that matter, not to choose this for the view of your art. If one, for some reason likes the view form this angle, I would still suggest, showing the tree slightly higher, or slightly lower. So, one isn't looking exactly straight on at the tree.

Here is a View of a tree with the Horizon Line centered.
View attachment 90114

While we are here... I would like to cover another way one can still play with the perspective of the tree, and how one views the tree, without actually raising, or lowering the height at which one displays the tree. Yet still give the "illusion" of appearing either taller, or smaller. This is trough how one styles the tree... through wiring. If one wanted to give an appearance of a taller tree, one could wire the branching and foliage slightly upward. Obviously then if one wanted it to appear smaller one could wire down. You will see in the following images how this can still work quite effectively to accomplish the same thing as the tree's display height.

View attachment 90116 View attachment 90117

Can anyone think of a scenario in which one might choose this route of wiring and styling the tree with a particular perspective in mind to give a taller/smaller feel, instead of choosing to just raise the height, in which one views the tree?
Any thoughts ???

First - have you drawn all of these sketches for these posts? They're beautiful - thank you for doing this.

In terms of the question you posed at the end, I have to admit that I may not fully understand it very well because my gut reaction is that we always do this - or at least I do, although perhaps not perhaps not consciously. I orient the trunk in my planned potting position befor styling. When I wire, I often do so with the tree at chest level, so I'm looking downward on the tree. But when it comes to positioning the branches I either raise the tree or lower my view to both position the major branches or arrange the finer ones. But I think the next time I do some styling I'll be a lot more conscious and deliberate about it.

A practical question - thinking about this point and the previous discussion about the horizon line partially drawn by the viewers perspective on the table. Every show I've been to places the trees all on the same height table. Usually 4x8 folding tables. I'm a tall guy, so even with a stand I view every tree in display from above (but I think most people do - the 4x8 tables are only what - 3 feet tall. Even on a stand, the apex of most trees will be less than 5' off the ground. So we're always looking downward on trees in display (hence the issue with the horizon line you drew on Mas' forest in the previous post). So how do we overcome this? How do we design a tree with the a particular viewing perspective in mind when the trees end up being viewed at a single elevation three feet off the ground?

Scott

 

[markyscott]

In the mean time why we wait for some responses to the question asked at the end of the previous post...

I thought it might be interesting to see what everyone thought of the following image.
It is quite possible to design and wire a single tree with all of the different angles of Perspective shown so far. Doing this could really give the illusion of a much bigger tree.

View attachment 90171

I've been taught that when styling a tree the lower branches should hang down and the upper ones should point up, Ive always thought that is because the older branches are lower down on the tree while the younger ones are near the top. I'll never look at it the same way again.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Catching up - been a busy few days. Sorry for reaching back to an older post, but here's a thought - when you're in the mountains, you often see forests viewed from above, but the trees close to you are viewed from a much different perspective. Kind of like in this photo:

View attachment 90214

I wonder if the downward perspective could be used to create such an impression of viewing the forest from elevation.
Scott

No, problem... this is one of the main reasons for posting this in a thread, and not a tutorial/resource. .. so we could discuss it and anyone could add to it.

I am just laying out the basic fundamentals of perspective, there are no really right or wrong ways of doing things, as long as one understands how these principles work. This way no matter what it is that you are trying to accomplish, will be viewed as what it is that you are trying to accomplish.

One most certainly can design a view of where perhaps you might want the viewer up on a hill, or mountain, as your picture indicates, looking down on the forest beneath.

How, does one do this?

Well, first off you will need to understand from the get go, that this is not always a normal perspective for most folks. They are not just right off the bat, going to get that they are supposed to imagine themselves on a hill looking down at your planting. They are just going to think you planting is displayed to low.

So, first rule of thumb with any art is to know your audience. You are the "storyteller". It is your job as the storyteller, trying to tell your story... to understand how one can convey to your audience the story you are trying to tell.

This story can be as far reaching and as unbelievable as possible, as long as you are able to bring the audience who is viewing your story into the story. You cannot just say here it is, except it. It will not happen... So, as the storyteller wishing to tell the story in a way that they are not familiar normally with, one needs to try and help, and familiarize them with it.

If one then wants to show a planting of trees in a valley, with a perspective looking down, as the chosen perspective...

How then can we do this?

Perhaps, we add into the planting on one side a very large rock that is much taller than the trees? That gives the feel, or symbolizes a mountain? Perhaps one on either side, so one sees these trees as being in a valley? One could add to this story, if one chose to use a scroll, perhaps the image on this could be a mountain scene as well?

If one had rocks on either side that where close to our eye line, or horizon. .. then one would naturally get that the placing of the planting at it's perspective, of being lower, looking down... would be intentional, and not a mistake.

Your audience would then understand your story... that being trees in a valley. We have understood our audience, and have helped them along visually to tell our story.

 

[A Random User]

First - have you drawn all of these sketches for these posts? They're beautiful - thank you for doing this.

In terms of the question you posed at the end, I have to admit that I may not fully understand it very well because my gut reaction is that we always do this - or at least I do, although perhaps not perhaps not consciously. I orient the trunk in my planned potting position befor styling. When I wire, I often do so with the tree at chest level, so I'm looking downward on the tree. But when it comes to positioning the branches I either raise the tree or lower my view to both position the major branches or arrange the finer ones. But I think the next time I do some styling I'll be a lot more conscious and deliberate about it.

A practical question - thinking about this point and the previous discussion about the horizon line partially drawn by the viewers perspective on the table. Every show I've been to places the trees all on the same height table. Usually 4x8 folding tables. I'm a tall guy, so even with a stand I view every tree in display from above (but I think most people do - the 4x8 tables are only what - 3 feet tall. Even on a stand, the apex of most trees will be less than 5' off the ground. So we're always looking downward on trees in display (hence the issue with the horizon line you drew on Mas' forest in the previous post). So how do we overcome this? How do we design a tree with the a particular viewing perspective in mind when the trees end up being viewed at a single elevation three feet off the ground?

Scott

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did the drawings, thanks for the compliment!

Mainly what I was getting at with the question, is are their times when one might want to instead choose to wire a tree in a particular perspective, rather than just adjusting the height of the overall tree and it's display?

So, really the question was more beginning to look at how we style a tree, rather then how it is just displayed. How, through perspective in our styling of a tree can effect what one sees...

So, perhaps one has a piece of material that they like where it sits display height wise, but when viewed... the tree looks to open and not compact, in essence to tall. One can then wire branching and pads in more of a downward perspective.

Seeing that we already established with the Horizon, or eye line discussion before, that one viewing foliage from a downward view gives the feeling of being smaller because we are looking down on it. One can quite literally give the "illusion" of a tree appearing smaller, yet the tree is still the same height. And vice versa if a tree appears to small.

Another instance might be, that perhaps one has a feature they like of the tree, such as a jin a shari, or even some movement in a branch, etc. That they want to show off, but if the tree is displayed at the height they wish to show it at, this feature is not visible. So, then one will have to adjust the height. Which then changes the feel of the perspective. So, to compensate, one might need to make up for this with the styling of the branching and pads.

Often with material such as junipers, the best view of the a cool feature of the trunk, might be looking straight down at the material from the top. So, one wants to make this the front of the tree, and what is seen. So, it is changed the in the planting of the material. Now, because one is now looking at the top of the tree. .. with the foliage more b than likely coming straight towards you... this will have to be changed and styled differently. You have changed the perspective of how the tree was viewed, by changing the angle it is potted at, it now needs the rest to follow suit.

I know this sounds elementary, yet yes... we adjust the perspective of how the tree is viewed with just about everything we do to the tree. The reasoning for the thread... to perhaps understand how what we do can easily be transfered into an established formula by centuries of folks doing art.

If one wants to wire a branch and bend it down lower because they think it will look good. These basic fundamentals help to explain what is happening visually, when one does.

As far as the displaying and the tables being at the wrong heights... this seems to be a common thread no matter where I have seen shows... one just gets tables and throws a cloth over the top and a curtain behind. Some shows will add extension pvc pipes to the legs to raise the height, because they understand this problem exists... others perhaps needs some education regarding this matter.

To be safe... I would suggest you ask them before hand what the height of the tables will be. And you design accordingly.

 

[A Random User]

I've been taught that when styling a tree the lower branches should hang down and the upper ones should point up, Ive always thought that is because the older branches are lower down on the tree while the younger ones are near the top. I'll never look at it the same way again.

Scott

I am not saying that one styling a tree as you have suggested with this post, is not correct. Yes, if one looks at older trees, this is what they look like. So, most would say to style in such a way, because this is what nature does, so they are mimicking nature. They are not wrong...

I have only shown how this can also assist in adding perspective, in addition to one trying to imitate what happens in nature.

How, one can also, begin to play with perspective as well... to add dimension to a tree. So, the tree has more depth and does not appear to be flat and perhaps better tell a story.

later we will get into how one can really begin to start forcing perspective within the tree, to drastically add to the story.