Once I read a Japanese author saying this of hedging .... ''This is an atrocity which should only be performed on young material'' By this I presume he meant that especially if you have rows and rows of material going in beds, you're not going to go along carefully selecting every branch, you are going to go along with an electric trimmer and shave everything down. When I first read this thread I assumed we were talking about hedging well developed material in place of pinching and individual branch selection. There is a big difference. The only concern I would have with it is that it should be done quite regularly and quite low (or short). Letting the branches grow long and cutting long will leave you have a multitude on long straight sections which cannot be used and must be removed. By cutting often and short you will have much more
Bjorn Bjorholm Speaks Out On Hedge Pruning
- Thread starter coh
- Start date
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I do not understand why so many people have an opinion about hedging, that it is bad techniques etcetc. And of course, feel te need to burn this down.
Walter uses it. He is happy with the results and health he is seeing on his trees. He shares what he does. Other people may try it and decide whether it produces the results they want forr their trees. IF not, they can go back to the way they were doing it before. End of story.
Thank you @Walter Pall for sharing what works for you and explaining it in such detail instead of keeping it to yourself and asking big money to teach others.
Walter uses it. He is happy with the results and health he is seeing on his trees. He shares what he does. Other people may try it and decide whether it produces the results they want forr their trees. IF not, they can go back to the way they were doing it before. End of story.
Thank you @Walter Pall for sharing what works for you and explaining it in such detail instead of keeping it to yourself and asking big money to teach others.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
in post #211 Walter posted a tree that won an award up against another tree that had been trained in the way most are used to, both had been in training from bare stumps for a similar period of time.
maybe you couldnt be bothered to acknowledge the post that pretty much is a very good example of a result and comparison.
it shows a lack of effort.
you dont deserve another answer.go do some research.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
btw, we are still waiting to see the 'results' from all the information you gathered in your collecting thread...........
www.bonsainut.com
Master Discussion: Summer and Fall Collecting and Repotting
I've been trying to do research on this topic for awhile now, but I've never personally collected in the Late Summer/Fall. I have read stuff from Walter Pall, Harry Harrington (https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATquercus%20rootpruning%20and%20repotting.htm), and others about collecting at this...
ive been having trouble replying and acces the site, I try again
@Walter Pall, yes you do mention that hedging is much faster then pinching and he also replies that he doesn’t pinch but let it grow about 20cm and cut it back.
There is a difference between constantly pinching , letting it grow and cut back selectively, or letting it grow out and hedge.
you always make it sound that whoever’s is not hedging is pinching. I both pinch and let grow and cut back later even on the same tree. In japan trees are not developed solely by pinching
now do I believe that the emperor could be developed by pinching only? Perhaps, it would take a tremendous time and danger of weakening the tree. Do you really think that if you gave this tree to a knowledgeable bonsai person in japan that he would start developing this tree by pinching? Come on Walter, offcourse that would not be the method but rather letting It grow out and cut back later on. Would they hedge it? No they would not, every branch would be checked and cut back or let grow if needed.
As for the difference between andrejas and Sebastians tree, I think a lot also has to do with what he keeps while prunning, I personally prefer the look of sebastians tree, yes it’s less dense, yes it needs to be more dense still to get better. But maybe that’s also because he cut away the branches he didn’t like. You said he tamed it too much, I think the pruning looks more clean and indeed less wild then andrejas tree. but hasnt this more to do with the choices He/she makes while prunning? I understand you prefer the wild untamed look more.
Don’t get me wrong, the emperor is a stunning tree but I still like Sebastians tree more.
i wish I could see both of them in real and Not to search for the smallest fault but to enjoy them in a way that is just not possible by looking at photographs or videos.
@Walter Pall, yes you do mention that hedging is much faster then pinching and he also replies that he doesn’t pinch but let it grow about 20cm and cut it back.
There is a difference between constantly pinching , letting it grow and cut back selectively, or letting it grow out and hedge.
you always make it sound that whoever’s is not hedging is pinching. I both pinch and let grow and cut back later even on the same tree. In japan trees are not developed solely by pinching
now do I believe that the emperor could be developed by pinching only? Perhaps, it would take a tremendous time and danger of weakening the tree. Do you really think that if you gave this tree to a knowledgeable bonsai person in japan that he would start developing this tree by pinching? Come on Walter, offcourse that would not be the method but rather letting It grow out and cut back later on. Would they hedge it? No they would not, every branch would be checked and cut back or let grow if needed.
As for the difference between andrejas and Sebastians tree, I think a lot also has to do with what he keeps while prunning, I personally prefer the look of sebastians tree, yes it’s less dense, yes it needs to be more dense still to get better. But maybe that’s also because he cut away the branches he didn’t like. You said he tamed it too much, I think the pruning looks more clean and indeed less wild then andrejas tree. but hasnt this more to do with the choices He/she makes while prunning? I understand you prefer the wild untamed look more.
Don’t get me wrong, the emperor is a stunning tree but I still like Sebastians tree more.
i wish I could see both of them in real and Not to search for the smallest fault but to enjoy them in a way that is just not possible by looking at photographs or videos.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Here's a novel idea.
Why doesn't anyone try out a technique to see for themselves?
Get 2 trees.
Hedge one and poke at the other like normal.
See for yourselves the results.
I see a lot of posts here but not one has said they've compared the two.
I'm other words.
GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND TRY SOMETHING BEFORE YOU FIELD UNSUPPORTED OPINONS!
Why doesn't anyone try out a technique to see for themselves?
Get 2 trees.
Hedge one and poke at the other like normal.
See for yourselves the results.
I see a lot of posts here but not one has said they've compared the two.
I'm other words.
GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND TRY SOMETHING BEFORE YOU FIELD UNSUPPORTED OPINONS!
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Like your time has any value.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I am not at all trying to teach someone in Japan. I am referring only to what i see in Europe and elsewhere in the western world. There the majority believes that one has to develop broadleaf deciduous and evergreen trees by pinching. as this is the 'correct' way. I am saying that what they deem to be 'correct' is in fact 'wrong'. Pinching is the method to keep and further refine already finished trees and is detrimental if you use it on raw material. You will never get where you think you will or it is going to take three to five times longer.
BTW, it may surprise some that I still never pinch because I do not have trees which I think are 'finished'. Whenever one of my trees should get there I will pinch.
because I do not have trees which I think are 'finished'. Whenever one of my trees shold get ther I will pinch.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
While trying to avoid wading in to another internet slugfest, I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate someone in your position having made this statement. In my opinion, so many broadleaf trees in the US have underdeveloped branches without taper, movement or interior branching because of exactly this reason. And they’ll never get there because of the constant pinching creating twig density at the branch ends, but doing nothing to improve the branch structure. So THANK YOU for pointing this out.
Scott
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
Tommy said: "you always make it sound that whoever’s is not hedging is pinching"
Tommy, here is the tree you linked, in an earlier state...
watch it,
Walter says...
'somebody with great care, structured a nice crown'
Sebastion goes on to explain his technique.... the 'cut n grow method'
Note that Walter doesnt say, no its wrong, follow my hedge pruning method
Walter says this is fine you are on a very good way.
this kind of goes back to what i said before about Walter being aware of what Sebastion does. and he knows its not just pinching, you can get that clearly from this video
here is another one of Sandev's trees similar type discussion....
Walter says he would like this tree to be denser and that the owner knows that.....he claims that Seb is slower with his method of 'pinching' 'cutting back' 'dividing' 'he does what many do and whats in the books' 'slowly it will grow' 'thats the way bonsai was done always' 'I made the hedge pruning method popular'
then Walter goes on to explain his own method which works for him for the MILLIONTH TIME
then again, Walter goes on to talk about Seb's method.....how that EVERY SINGLE BRANCH HAS ITS PLACE RIGHT FROM THE START!
EVEN WHEN THE BRANCH IS VERY VERY YOUNG YOU DECIDE WHAT BRANCH GOES WHAT WAY!
then Walter explains his method again because many still didnt understand
WALTER GOES ON TO EXPLAIN THAT HEDGE PRUNING ISNT NATURAL, BUT THE END RESULT IS NATURAL
HE EXPLAINS WHY IN THE VIDEO....
THEN WALTER AGAIN!!!!
ACKNOWLEDGES SEBASTION SANDEV'S CLIP N GROW TECHNIQUE.....HE EXPLAINS AGAIN:
'if you do this here, in the end you will have a very nice and very well groomed tree.... which will be beautiful! BUT, it will have an artistic sort of beauty.
IT WILL LOOK LIKE SOMEONE CONSTRUCTED THAT TREE VERY WELL....................................WALTER SAYS THIS IS FINE!!!!!!!
i hope folks understand after this post.....
you can't just watch one video and say you get it.
most wont watch the videos i linked, they will think im takin the piss or they will say, so what i seen them all already.
but then they will still come back and ask the same questions
because they still didnt 'get it'
I think its clear from these clips that Walter isnt shitting all over another method.
but many will continue to have their own agenda......
i can respect that both methods have their place and its for you to decide what is best for your tree.
i love Sebastiens tree and i also love the wild and rugged look of the Emperor.
Tommy, here is the tree you linked, in an earlier state...
watch it,
Walter says...
'somebody with great care, structured a nice crown'
Sebastion goes on to explain his technique.... the 'cut n grow method'
Note that Walter doesnt say, no its wrong, follow my hedge pruning method
Walter says this is fine you are on a very good way.
this kind of goes back to what i said before about Walter being aware of what Sebastion does. and he knows its not just pinching, you can get that clearly from this video
here is another one of Sandev's trees similar type discussion....
Walter says he would like this tree to be denser and that the owner knows that.....he claims that Seb is slower with his method of 'pinching' 'cutting back' 'dividing' 'he does what many do and whats in the books' 'slowly it will grow' 'thats the way bonsai was done always' 'I made the hedge pruning method popular'
then Walter goes on to explain his own method which works for him for the MILLIONTH TIME
then again, Walter goes on to talk about Seb's method.....how that EVERY SINGLE BRANCH HAS ITS PLACE RIGHT FROM THE START!
EVEN WHEN THE BRANCH IS VERY VERY YOUNG YOU DECIDE WHAT BRANCH GOES WHAT WAY!
then Walter explains his method again because many still didnt understand
WALTER GOES ON TO EXPLAIN THAT HEDGE PRUNING ISNT NATURAL, BUT THE END RESULT IS NATURAL
HE EXPLAINS WHY IN THE VIDEO....
THEN WALTER AGAIN!!!!
ACKNOWLEDGES SEBASTION SANDEV'S CLIP N GROW TECHNIQUE.....HE EXPLAINS AGAIN:
'if you do this here, in the end you will have a very nice and very well groomed tree.... which will be beautiful! BUT, it will have an artistic sort of beauty.
IT WILL LOOK LIKE SOMEONE CONSTRUCTED THAT TREE VERY WELL....................................WALTER SAYS THIS IS FINE!!!!!!!
i hope folks understand after this post.....
you can't just watch one video and say you get it.
most wont watch the videos i linked, they will think im takin the piss or they will say, so what i seen them all already.
but then they will still come back and ask the same questions
because they still didnt 'get it'
I think its clear from these clips that Walter isnt shitting all over another method.
but many will continue to have their own agenda......
i can respect that both methods have their place and its for you to decide what is best for your tree.
i love Sebastiens tree and i also love the wild and rugged look of the Emperor.
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Thank you Walter Pall.
Thank you Marky Scott.
Thank You Bobby Lane.
Once you understand the entire context of the human, you understand they are not forcing anything down your throat.
Same with Bjorn, he didn't make the video to claim supremacy, he made the video to give his opinion once and for all.
Too much assuming.
Next.
Sorce
Thank you Marky Scott.
Thank You Bobby Lane.
Once you understand the entire context of the human, you understand they are not forcing anything down your throat.
Same with Bjorn, he didn't make the video to claim supremacy, he made the video to give his opinion once and for all.
Too much assuming.
Next.
Sorce
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
you know, it should be noted.....
this is @Djtommy this is a lovely tree as you say and i agree....
but this is still in training we can agree on this right?
because this tree in my eyes isnt fully ramified, ive looked at this tree many times. i love it. but to me its not a finished tree. we can agree on this?
it has very good primary branch structure. but i can also see where a lot of the secondary and tertery branches have been clipped off. all the twigs that would of emerged underneath the primary branches have been clipped off.
for these reasons, Walter is explaining that the tree has been tamed a little too much
if we are going to have a serious debate lets be real about all this.
this is a lovely tree, but one can see that it is far from complete.
on the other hand, folks can dress it down all they like, but the other hornbeam, the Emperor in terms of development is a little further ahead.
am i the only one who can see this?
this is @Djtommy this is a lovely tree as you say and i agree....
but this is still in training we can agree on this right?
because this tree in my eyes isnt fully ramified, ive looked at this tree many times. i love it. but to me its not a finished tree. we can agree on this?
it has very good primary branch structure. but i can also see where a lot of the secondary and tertery branches have been clipped off. all the twigs that would of emerged underneath the primary branches have been clipped off.
for these reasons, Walter is explaining that the tree has been tamed a little too much
if we are going to have a serious debate lets be real about all this.
this is a lovely tree, but one can see that it is far from complete.
on the other hand, folks can dress it down all they like, but the other hornbeam, the Emperor in terms of development is a little further ahead.
am i the only one who can see this?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
All very interesting, but I have one question after reading through the last page of comments.
If the hedging method is so wonderful, how come Walter (by his own admission) has no "finished" trees that are ready for the pinching stage yet? Could it be that continuous use of this method essentially gets you to a stagnation point where the trees don't get any better? In his blog posts about this he says he discovered the method "many years ago" (I don't know exactly what that means) so presumably there are trees that have been treated this way for "many years." Now, maybe you'll say it's simply because it really takes that long to get to a "finished" stage and maybe that's true, I haven't been doing bonsai long enough to have been through the complete process from "stock" to "finished." But I think it's a valid question.
Of course, what is "finished" to one person might still be "crude and coarse" to another.
Please don't take this as a personal attack on Walter. We're discussing (or trying to discuss) the method.
If the hedging method is so wonderful, how come Walter (by his own admission) has no "finished" trees that are ready for the pinching stage yet? Could it be that continuous use of this method essentially gets you to a stagnation point where the trees don't get any better? In his blog posts about this he says he discovered the method "many years ago" (I don't know exactly what that means) so presumably there are trees that have been treated this way for "many years." Now, maybe you'll say it's simply because it really takes that long to get to a "finished" stage and maybe that's true, I haven't been doing bonsai long enough to have been through the complete process from "stock" to "finished." But I think it's a valid question.
Of course, what is "finished" to one person might still be "crude and coarse" to another.
Please don't take this as a personal attack on Walter. We're discussing (or trying to discuss) the method.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I have more than 200 to 300 trees which can go onto big exhibits after a bit of preparing. But they all can still get better. Good is not good enough for me. Very good is not good enough. it must be most outstanding. And this takes decades, even with the Hedge Pruning Method.
what do you want to discuss?
....didn’t I say it’s less dense and needs more ramification to improve? Didn’t I mention that I believe a big reason for that is because he cuts away what he doesn’t want? didn’t I acknowledg that because of this the tree is less dense and less rugged looking?
“you can see where he clipped off twigs from underneath the primary branches” so you are saying it would have been more ramified if he didn’t do that right,
isnt that what I said? He keeps what he likes and cuts away what he doesn’t.
because of these things the emperor looks further ahead however give this tree to many people and they would cut off a lot of branches and make it more clean looking, whether this is good or bad is subjective and not discussable. I’m not sure what I would do myself. I would need to have the tree in from of me first. I might just go with the flow.
a0kalittlema0n
Sapling
- Messages
- 38
- Reaction score
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I did read that post. I can see both trees and think they're both great. In neither the photo or the video can you see a close up of the branches, taper, or fine ramification at all. I don't think you can realistically judge a tree by a photo at all (not to mention a lower resolution photo/video that I can't zoom in on in any way). The hedge pruned tree has more branches in general, but that doesn't mean it is "better" in everyone's opinion.
This is the thing I'm frustrated with. Better, or best is subjective at best. One tree might win an award at one show and not get close in another. It is art. Some people love the Mona Lisa and some people hate it. It isn't an objective thing, but subjective at best.
So saying "whoever has the best tree has the best technique" is literally asking for controversy and for people to pit one technique vs the other. I am personally going to try the method with trees and compare results (have 2 to do it with already) and am excited to see the results and hopefully it works faster than what I'm currently doing. I also agree that whatever works for you works for you. Just don't defend what you choose to do with a statement of "judge my trees to yours and you tell me which method is better" when it is subjective to begin with and then get frustrated when people argue, discuss, and consider your statements controversial.
As for my results on the Summer/Fall collecting thread I'm still working on it. I'll be sure to send you a postcard when I finish it. Thanks for looking my posts up to find something to personally attack me on
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I would like to thank Walter Pall for taking the time posting his ideas and experiences while tolerating the attacks from those who are still adhering to the old ways and dare not look beyond them. I cannot criticize the artistry of traditional Japanese bonsai, I love it and admire those who have mastered it. I also realize bonsai is like the trees we admire; if the art does not grow like its trees it dies. Sometimes in an attempt to learn the best information and master the best techniques we tend to become followers of teachers who themselves are secretly grasping at straws to learn more, or busy declining because they wont change. There is nothing more interesting than to see change happening in the work of those we follow, Ryan has changed, Bjorn has changed, Walter has changed; I know of no one who is a vibrat force in bonsai that has not changed his art. Even Kimura has changed his art. The rest of us are trying to catch up whie weighing our efforts against the instructions of others.
BonsaiDawg
Yamadori
You dunno shet bout me homie so shut yo fukin mouth betch
Woocash
Omono
Steady now...remember where you are please. Merry Christmas!
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
From the couple posts of yours that I've read I know all I need to know about you.
For example your reply to me.
Needing to resort to vulgarity only tells me and others you aren't all that bright.
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