Another mugo attempt

[Vance Wood]

I think this 800 mile gap in latitude may have some say so in the future of this tree. Your on par with mid Oregon, we are 200 miles from Death Valley. I know hundreds of bonsai people in the American west and North west, I have yet to see a mugo in an exhibit or a collection. I don't know why. Maybe out here there is not much affinity for the species when Black Pines are so easy to come by and with good bonsai traits for less money.

I also am not sure on repotting in summer here when temps are 106 today, 109 for Tuesday, and an average of 104 for the last three weeks in a row. I am sure you can't treat these as an olive or pomegranite here can you?

If the Mugo can be grown in a landscape it can be grown as a bonsai. I believe that most people that attempt to grow a Mugo try to apply JBP technique and in doing so kiill the tree. I don't know many (read that as any) people even here in Michigan that can grow them because----- they try to grow them with JBP technique. When people come to me they will admit at some point trying to do the JBP thing to their Mugo and state clearly that's what they are doing-----just like they are supposed to with a ------ya' know-----two needle Pine. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do with Two-Needle Pines? People just don't seem to get it. They will tell me how impressed they are with my Mugos but forget almost everything I have been telling them about the tree. Well thankfully we have a few making the effort and we are starting to see some successes-----I hope.

I guess the best thing I can tell people at this point is this: If you are serious in growing a Mugo Pine Bonsai think of the tree as a totally alien species and don't treat it like anything anyone who does not have one tells you to do with it.

 

[garywood]

Vance, it's been 20-25 years since the old two-needle discussions. I haven't heard or read anything since that doesn't differentiate between single or multiple flush pines. I'm curious as to which technique is killing mugos.

 

[Smoke]

If the Mugo can be grown in a landscape it can be grown as a bonsai. I believe that most people that attempt to grow a Mugo try to apply JBP technique and in doing so kiill the tree. I don't know many (read that as any) people even here in Michigan that can grow them because----- they try to grow them with JBP technique. When people come to me they will admit at some point trying to do the JBP thing to their Mugo and state clearly that's what they are doing-----just like they are supposed to with a ------ya' know-----two needle Pine. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do with Two-Needle Pines? People just don't seem to get it. They will tell me how impressed they are with my Mugos but forget almost everything I have been telling them about the tree. Well thankfully we have a few making the effort and we are starting to see some successes-----I hope.

I guess the best thing I can tell people at this point is this: If you are serious in growing a Mugo Pine Bonsai think of the tree as a totally alien species and don't treat it like anything anyone who does not have one tells you to do with it.

Define success....keeping one alive or developing a high quality mugo pine on par with a black pine.

 

[jkd2572]

Mugo pine is not that foreign in Europe. I have see many blogs with people styling them, but have seen very little on the cultivation of them. Thanks again Vance for sharing your experiences with them. The only thing I have found is in the link below which includes scots and mugo pines. I'm posting this In case anyone is interested.
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

 

[Adair M]

Vance,

I generally try to stay out of the Mugo threads. Mugos sometimes survive here in GA, but they certainly don't thrive. I know you like them, but they're not suited for our climate.

But, the reason for my post: You stated in this thread earlier that the only way to get JBP needles to reduce was to starve them. That is just plain wrong. Yes, that was the technique 50 years ago, before decandling was "discovered". Decandling allows one to control the needle length. The TIMING of the decandling is what determines how long the needles will be. Decandling JBP early in the summer allows the summer candles to grow longer. Doing it later in the summer shortens the growing season for the second flush of candles, thus they will be shorter when the seasons change. This results in shorter needles.

So, for JBP you want "longer" needles, decandle early. Shohin and minis decandle late.

I have a JBP with 1/2 inch needles. Frankly, that's too short. But last summer was cool and wet, and the JBP did not grow needles as they usually do. Mother Nature still rules.

JBP, JRP and our local Virginia Pine are two flush pines. Which means that decandling will work, and not kill the tree, and the tree should put out a second flush of growth. Other pines are single flush pines, and decandling does not work, and may kill the tree. Mugos, Scots, and all 5 needle pines fall into that category.

The "two flush growth" pines also have the characteristic that the second flush of growth exhibits short "necks", if any at all. The neck is the portion of the candle that is between last years growth and this year's needles. The necks are barren, and have no buds. The second flush of growth on JBP have almost no neck. Which means better ramification. Also, the second flush usually has multiple buds, rather than one central one. Again, more ramification.

So, please stop spreading misinformation about JBP. Many people on this site respect your knowledge and experience. I know you advocate for Mugo pines. Which is fine. However, you should also state that they do well in your climate, but may not do well in more temperate zones.

I will agree that JBP prefer warmer climates than what you have in Michigan. One should grow what does well in their climate. Unless, of course, you're willing to take extraordinary steps to artificially provide the climate the tree needs.

Respectfully submitted,

Adair M

 

[Smoke]

You might be at 104 today, Smoke, but we're a good deal cooler at 4,500 feet of elevation. I doubt you guys had frost in June.

Five day for me

102-108-104-101-99

Five day for you

101-102-98-95-94

Five day for Vance Wood

88-82-73-71-75 with up to 30% chance of rain.

We are in the third year of a record drought not seen since depression era days.

Based on what you see above which temp bracket you think a pine ( mugo or not) repotted in the middle of summer has the best chance of survival?

 

[Adair M]

jkd2572,

Mugo is native to Europe. So, certainly they're not "foreign" there! There are great yamadori Mugos in Europe.

 

[Smoke]

Mugo pine is not that foreign in Europe. http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

What?????




Pinus mugo

Pinus mugo, known as mountain pine, dwarf mountain pine, scrub mountain pine, Swiss mountain pine, mugo pine[3] or creeping pine,[4] is a species of conifer, native to high elevation habitats from southwestern to Central Europe.


Distribution
Pinus mugo is native to the Pyrenees, Alps, Erzgebirge, Carpathians, northern Apennines, and higher Balkan Peninsula mountains.

 

[jkd2572]

I realize that smoke. I just wanted to point that out to some that don't know. Still there is not a lot of direction on their cultivation.....

 

[garywood]

I realize that smoke. I just wanted to point that out to some that don't know. Still there is not a lot of direction on their cultivation.....

JD, if you read between the lines, all single flush (1 technique) pines react the same (physiologically) It's only a question of degree. It's the same with multiple flush. Understanding the degree is the essence of good growing

 

[Smoke]

I realize that smoke. I just wanted to point that out to some that don't know. Still there is not a lot of direction on their cultivation.....

I don't get your point, but then I'm getting old too. Ever wonder why there is not much information about certain species? It may be that this species is not used very much in the bonsai trade. There is not much on Hinoki Cypress, many cultivars of Maple, bristlecone pine, manzanita and a myriad of other species that seem suitable for our exercise.


Bonsai in the Central Valley of California is a unique microclimate unlike any place in the USA. It is blazing hot in the summer with no humidity, we have only two seasons, hot and cold. Cold can be as much as the low teens for a week or two and then level out around the thirties for the rest of the time. We have very little rain, average aroung 10 inches a year, I think this year we got around 2 inches. I think it is important to grow what thrives in the area. My point has been that mugo pines do not thrive in this area.

If they were suitable for bonsai cultivation then the local bonsai nursery would carry lots of them since they are plentiful and cheap.

 

[jedge76]

Five day for me

102-108-104-101-99

Five day for you

101-102-98-95-94

Five day for Vance Wood

88-82-73-71-75 with up to 30% chance of rain.

We are in the third year of a record drought not seen since depression era days.

Based on what you see above which temp bracket you think a pine ( mugo or not) repotted in the middle of summer has the best chance of survival?

94 today, 85 yesterday, 81 the day before:
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/getobext.php?wfo=hnx&sid=D0826&num=72&raw=0

We're easily 10 degrees cooler than Fresno in the summer, and typically more. How many Ponderosa Pines do you have in your backyard Smoke?

 

[Smoke]

How many Ponderosa Pines do you have in your backyard Smoke?

None. Lots of California juniper though.....

How many Swiss mountain pines are growing in your backyard?

 

[jedge76]

Right now? Two.

 

[jedge76]

How much snow does Fresno get again? This is my now front porch, 2011....

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, it's been 20-25 years since the old two-needle discussions. I haven't heard or read anything since that doesn't differentiate between single or multiple flush pines. I'm curious as to which technique is killing mugos.

The time of year you repot the tree is primary. The amount of water the tree is given. The amount you fertilize the tree. The way the tree is treated according to candle/shoot removal. Needle removal is another biggie. Exposure to the Sun is critical also. All of these issues are marginally different from the recommended methods suggested for JBP's.

The critical issues are as mentioned: Repotting and watering.

 

[Vance Wood]

Define success....keeping one alive or developing a high quality mugo pine on par with a black pine.

There are people that would argue that you cannot develop a high quality Mugo Pine on par with a Black Pine according to their opinion. Understanding that I am not the artist that Ryan Neil is, and I probably cannot produce a Japanese Black Pine on par with a Japanese Black Pine, I can produce Mugo Pine Bonsai and have done so for many years. If you can keep a Mugo alive you should be able to develop it. They have the ability to do really well in colder climates but that does not mean they cannot do well in milder climates. I do believe they need a winter at least as severe as the J.Black Pine, but if you can do JBP or Japanese White Pine or Japanese Red Pine the Mugo should not be a forbidden to you due to climate.

 

[garywood]

The time of year you repot the tree is primary. The amount of water the tree is given. The amount you fertilize the tree. The way the tree is treated according to candle/shoot removal. Needle removal is another biggie.

Could you go into a little detail about the difference in these things please?

 

[jedge76]

Would it be correct, Vance, that a potential reason that a mugo might not do well in certain climates is that those climates cannot provide the necessary dormancy period each winter that this species requires?

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't get your point, but then I'm getting old too. Ever wonder why there is not much information about certain species? It may be that this species is not used very much in the bonsai trade. There is not much on Hinoki Cypress, many cultivars of Maple, bristlecone pine, manzanita and a myriad of other species that seem suitable for our exercise.


Bonsai in the Central Valley of California is a unique microclimate unlike any place in the USA. It is blazing hot in the summer with no humidity, we have only two seasons, hot and cold. Cold can be as much as the low teens for a week or two and then level out around the thirties for the rest of the time. We have very little rain, average aroung 10 inches a year, I think this year we got around 2 inches. I think it is important to grow what thrives in the area. My point has been that mugo pines do not thrive in this area.

If they were suitable for bonsai cultivation then the local bonsai nursery would carry lots of them since they are plentiful and cheap.

Do you water every day or has the State of California told you that you cannot water every day? If you have the cold weather you have described you should have no problem with the Mugo Pine we have summers at times in the triple digits and winters that sometimes do not get below freezing and at others--- twenty below zero Fahrenheit. Mugos are not that sensitive contrary to what some may tell you.

I believe that there are species out there that seem to not respond because too many of us try to over think the issue and continue to fit themselves into Einstein's definition of insanity.