Another Juniper..please comment

[UNOCAN]

There are no bargains in bonsai, you pay for what you get or you get what you pay for. Next time you find a bargain bonsai nursery, please let me know, I would really appreciate it.

Harry

First of all, Amen to that!
Secondly, Nice trees Harry

 

[greerhw]

Hey Harry,

Killer pine! I look forward to seeing the progress on that one! The juniper...the jins are good I think, they aren't what jumps out to me. The first thing I notice is the cascading branch on the right. What are your thoughts on it? I could almost see 2/3 of that branch getting cut off and the flow of the foliage going more to the right. Ofcourse the apex needs to fill in, and the first branch on the left needs to be a little longer. Just some thoughts to open the discussions a bit...that is if you are still here

Jason

Hey Jason, All good ideas, I've studied it too and I'm not sure on some of my choices, so, I will turn Marco loose on it in April and see what he does with it. I'll post pictures over on BT along with all my trees after he's finished. I got some great material for him to work on this year including the ponderosa you sent me.. Thanks for the coments.

Harry

 

[Vance Wood]

I think the progression of this tree is good. It's nice to see this kind of developmental photo journal.

 

[Anonymous User]

The California juniper is a beautiful bonsai,, graceful lines, and great visual balance, Jim did a fine job on this, if it was Jim that styled it.

One thing though, the pot and/or planting position, whatever caused the tree to be shoved against the back left corner of the pot. This ruins the perspective.



Will

 

[Dav4]

One thing though, the pot and/or planting position, whatever caused the tree to be shoved against the back left corner of the pot. This ruins the perspective.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement...where else should this tree be positioned in the pot?


Dave

 

[Anonymous User]

As a general rule, anywhere but pressed against a side......

The image as presented could be improved by allowing enough room for environmental perspective, by which I mean potting and positioning the tree so that the illusion of this grand old survivor is not shattered by an abrupt end at a pot end.

Soil surface is groomed, moss is planted, ground cover placed, or soil texture and color is picked so that the illusion of an ancient old tree growing in a certain environment is enhanced. When the soil particle sizes, the size of the ground cover, or in this case the surface area directly surrounding the tree is wrong, the illusion does not have the full impact it could. This goes with pot choice as well, because the wrong size, color, or shape can distract from the illusion and draw attention to the pot. Like a frame for a painting, a pot should enhance the image without drawing attention away from it.

Al that being said, there should be an "environment" around the trunk, not to hold the eye, but instead to add to the illusion. When a trunk is planted right on the side of a pot, it is impossible not to see the pot when viewing the illusion. This is hard to explain.....

I know the purpose this tree was planted like this, more than likely to avoid the impression that the tree will fall over, the empty space on the right side of the pot serves to anchor the presentation and give visual balance. This is common in bonsai, but the same stability could have been given with a slightly larger pot in which the left side could contain some space for environment nuance. You can get away with cramming only in certain pots, I think.

However, I will admit that this is a difficult tree to pot and also that I have no real solution, I only know the trunk practically resting against the sides of this pot is distracting. To prove I have no idea how to correct this problem, I played with some of Dan Barton's pottery and made a couple virts, none which offers much better solutions, I'm afraid.


Will

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Ok Harry, I'm gonna comment but don't kill me. I am struggling with the design of this tree. Technically everything looks great, but the overall lines don't work for me. I think it comes down to the strength of the jin - how it forms such a strong apex - and the conflict with live foilage. I don't like the way the primary branch descends in front of the deadwood and crosses the trunk. In my mind's eye it makes a cross - the jin extending upwards while the branch crosses and extends downwards. I will try to create a virtual but I think I would be happier with a design that embraces and emphasizes the deadwood versus one that conflicts with it. Consider also the future development of the foilage - it will be on the left side with very little on the right, so the primary branch will be deemphasized. Please take this as constructive criticism, I would love to have this tree in my collection

An improvement?

 

[Dwight]

Back to your tree Harry. Leave the deadwood alone. It's spactacular !!! Have Marco work on the foilage and keep the power tools in a locked box !!

BTW , I have found from personal experiencs that the one nursery I visited in Seattle was much less expensive than the two I've visited in SoCal and way below internet prices. The trees seem just as nice in Seattle as well. I know this is a very small sample but I'm sure , as with any other product , geography plays an important part in price.

Back to Harrys beautiful juni. Please ignore that green fluff ball next to it.
e

 

[Smoke]

As a general rule, anywhere but pressed against a side......

The image as presented could be improved by allowing enough room for environmental perspective, by which I mean potting and positioning the tree so that the illusion of this grand old survivor is not shattered by an abrupt end at a pot end.


I know the purpose this tree was planted like this, more than likely to avoid the impression that the tree will fall over, the empty space on the right side of the pot serves to anchor the presentation and give visual balance. This is common in bonsai, but the same stability could have been given with a slightly larger pot in which the left side could contain some space for environment nuance. You can get away with cramming only in certain pots, I think.

However, I will admit that this is a difficult tree to pot and also that I have no real solution, I only know the trunk practically resting against the sides of this pot is distracting. To prove I have no idea how to correct this problem, I played with some of Dan Barton's pottery and made a couple virts, none which offers much better solutions, I'm afraid.


Will

Maybe the tree was planted like that because the root ball will not allow it to be planted further to the right. Based on many years experience digging junipers in the desert I can tell you that many of them are one sided. Most of them in fact are one sided. The reason is because the very attribute that causes us to dig them is what causes the tree to grow one sided. WIND. The ancourage is necessary to hold the tree against the wind . I can tell you that the exit position of the juniper means that the root mass is one sided and has nothing on the left and everything on the right. Probaby has a couple very large roots on the right that have not been chased back yet.

In about 5 years these roots can be cut off and a more pleasing planting position can be achieved. If there is one thing these junipers do it is grow roots. Plenty of them too.

 

[Juniperus Californica]

Hey Smoke,

Is that Henry in the picture next to the white pickup? Also, you're absolutely right about Cal Junipers having their roots on one side making it difficult to position them exactly the way you'd like in a bonsai pot. But, another reason the roots can be on one side is that Cal Junipers grow in clumps and we sometimes seperate the piece we want and the roots are radiating away from the clump, hence the roots on one side. Finally, did that tree in the pictures you posted make it?

Juniperus Californica

 

[Anonymous User]

Maybe the tree was planted like that because the root ball will not allow it to be planted further to the right. Based on many years experience digging junipers in the desert I can tell you that many of them are one sided. Most of them in fact are one sided. The reason is because the very attribute that causes us to dig them is what causes the tree to grow one sided. WIND. The ancourage is necessary to hold the tree against the wind . I can tell you that the exit position of the juniper means that the root mass is one sided and has nothing on the left and everything on the right. Probaby has a couple very large roots on the right that have not been chased back yet.

In about 5 years these roots can be cut off and a more pleasing planting position can be achieved. If there is one thing these junipers do it is grow roots. Plenty of them too.

This may indeed be the reason it is planted like it is, but the reason really doesn't matter when viewing the image presented. At least we agree that the planting position needs consideration and change.


Will

 

[Juniperus Californica]

I don't necessarily agree that the planting angle needs to be changed. I felt that the apex and the jin at the top of the tree were competing a bit - I like to see one or the other dominate.

Juniperus Californica

 

[Smoke]

This may indeed be the reason it is planted like it is, but the reason really doesn't matter when viewing the image presented. At least we agree that the planting position needs consideration and change.


Will

Totaly agree...but...like many things around here, not everything needs to be discussed. Many here are very versed in bonsai and most with a modicum of experience will know that there is an underlying reason why this tree is planted so far off center. I don't need to point it out to the world. I have a little more respect for people than that. When I meet someone for the first time and they have a big nose I feel no need to point it out to them. BonsaiNUT is not Kokufu, when and if it gets there I am sure there will be a pleasant man that will tell him it's planted wrong.

Thanks, Al

 

[Anonymous User]

Totaly agree...but...like many things around here, not everything needs to be discussed. Many here are very versed in bonsai and most with a modicum of experience will know that there is an underlying reason why this tree is planted so far off center. I don't need to point it out to the world. I have a little more respect for people than that. When I meet someone for the first time and they have a big nose I feel no need to point it out to them. BonsaiNUT is not Kokufu, when and if it gets there I am sure there will be a pleasant man that will tell him it's planted wrong.

This is where we disagree. By your logic, nothing needs to be discussed at all because someone may already know all about it, we might as well shut down all the forums.

When someone posts a tree on a public forum, they open the tree up for discussion. It doesn't matter if they asked for comments, advice, suggestions, or discussion, as these are the prices (and prizes) we get when we post publicly.

When someone posts a tree they create some of the following, no matter if they or others think such discussion is basic, advanced, boring, or exciting:

• Inspiration. Many viewers, experienced or not are inspired by the tree and the following discussion of its strength and weaknesses.
• Education of the readers in the form of good, intelligent discussion on the subject of the tree, creation, and design.
• Education of the poster in the receipt of many views that they can weigh, keep, or discard. Sometimes the best education is confirming what you already thought to be true.

The discussion on placement is just as valid as a subject as the design considerations Bnut brought forth. Both subjects can and should be discussed, regardless of if you think you already know it all.

May I suggest here that you actually comment on the tree, keep on the subject, and refrain from dictating what should and shouldn't be talked about in this thread or on this forum. Because this is not Kokufu, should we not discuss anything that would improve a bonsai? And pleasant or not, which I was, the truth is still the truth. This is obviously just another attempt to incite another heated debate, instead of actually discussing bonsai. Stop trolling, baiting, and do what you always preach about...talk bonsai, not trash.

The tree as presented has poor placement, the reason does not matter, the image presented does.


Will

 

[Smoke]

This is where we disagree. By your logic, nothing needs to be discussed at all because someone may already know all about it, we might as well shut down all the forums.

When someone posts a tree on a public forum, they open the tree up for discussion. It doesn't matter if they asked for comments, advice, suggestions, or discussion, as these are the prices (and prizes) we get when we post publicly.

When someone posts a tree they create some of the following, no matter if they or others think such discussion is basic, advanced, boring, or exciting:

• Inspiration. Many viewers, experienced or not are inspired by the tree and the following discussion of its strength and weaknesses.
• Education of the readers in the form of good, intelligent discussion on the subject of the tree, creation, and design.
• Education of the poster in the receipt of many views that they can weigh, keep, or discard. Sometimes the best education is confirming what you already thought to be true.

The discussion on placement is just as valid as a subject as the design considerations Bnut brought forth. Both subjects can and should be discussed, regardless of if you think you already know it all.

May I suggest here that you actually comment on the tree, keep on the subject, and refrain from dictating what should and shouldn't be talked about in this thread or on this forum. Because this is not Kokufu, should we not discuss anything that would improve a bonsai? And pleasant or not, which I was, the truth is still the truth. This is obviously just another attempt to incite another heated debate, instead of actually discussing bonsai. Stop trolling, baiting, and do what you always preach about...talk bonsai, not trash.

The tree as presented has poor placement, the reason does not matter, the image presented does.


Will

yada yada yada. Why do you care so much? ..nobody else does...let it go. You gotta lighten up man, your startin to sound like some of our politicians that are out of control. It's just a tree. You are a rude man.

 

[Dav4]

For what it's worth, Will, I disagreed with your statement about the trunk placement because the trunk is basically in the correct position (maybe off by an inch or two), and this tree is obviously still in development. After your go-around with Harry on another thread, it was obvious to me that your comment on trunk placement was a poorly concealed attempt to get the last word in. I don't want to fight or debate anything, it's just the way I see it.

Dave

 

[Anonymous User]

yada yada yada. Why do you care so much? ..nobody else does...let it go. You gotta lighten up man, your startin to sound like some of our politicians that are out of control. It's just a tree. You are a rude man.

The tree as presented has poor placement, the reason does not matter, the image presented does.

Best friend, worst enemy, ready to show, or raw stock, the fact is still the fact.

True to Al's nature and the reason so many threads turn into fights on this forum, while I was discussing the tree, Al wants to discuss me.... I talk about the tree and Al tries to turn it personal, debating me as a person, talking trash and trying very hard to keep anything from being productive..

So, here it starts and another thread goes to hell. Later Al will blame me

Same pattern, same thing, same old......

For what it's worth, Will, I disagreed with your statement about the trunk placement because the trunk is basically in the correct position (maybe off by an inch or two), and this tree is obviously still in development.

This first half of your post was excellent! It was on topic, on subject, and address my comments on the tree. To respond to this, you say the trunk is in the correct position, but admit it may be off by an inch or two. An inch or two in the reduced scale of bonsai can make the difference between success and failure.

Then you made the excuse that the tree was still in development. It matters not if the tree is still in development (most are), it doesn't matter if it is going to a world exhibition, a local show, or just being showed in the backyard. It was posted in a public forum, thereby opening it up for discussion. In such discussion critique, suggestions, and advice will be given right along side of the ohs and ahs.

Bnut took the time to do a virt and offered alternatives to the deadwood arrangement and foliage placement, yet no one jumped on him claiming he had some super secret hidden agenda or told him that since the tree is not being shown or is in development that he had no reason to make suggestions.

After your go-around with Harry on another thread, it was obvious to me that your comment on trunk placement was a poorly concealed attempt to get the last word in. I don't want to fight or debate anything, it's just the way I see it.

The second half of your post turned away from the topic and threw out a personal jab, based on your personal beliefs, which may or may not be true. Either way they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject, the tree, or the discussion. Such observations do not change the fact that the tree, as presented, has a poor potting position and only serves to incite.

"I don't want to fight or debate anything, it's just the way I see it."


Will

 

[Dav4]

This first half of your post was excellent! It was on topic, on subject, and address my comments on the tree. To respond to this, you say the trunk is in the correct position, but admit it may be off by an inch or two. An inch or two in the reduced scale of bonsai can make the difference between success and failure.

Then you made the excuse that the tree was still in development. It matters not if the tree is still in development (most are), it doesn't matter if it is going to a world exhibition, a local show, or just being showed in the backyard. It was posted in a public forum, thereby opening it up for discussion. In such discussion critique, suggestions, and advice will be given right along side of the ohs and ahs.

Bnut took the time to do a virt and offered alternatives to the deadwood arrangement and foliage placement, yet no one jumped on him claiming he had some super secret hidden agenda or told him that since the tree is not being shown or is in development that he had no reason to make suggestions.


The second half of your post turned away from the topic and threw out a personal jab, based on your personal beliefs, which may or may not be true. Either way they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject, the tree, or the discussion. Such observations do not change the fact that the tree, as presented, has a poor potting position and only serves to incite.

"I don't want to fight or debate anything, it's just the way I see it."


Will

Sorry, Will, but to say that I'm making an excuse by saying the tree is in development is ludicrous...the tree is years away from being show ready. With that in mind, complaining about the proximity of the trunk to the edge of the pot is trivial, to say the least. An inch or two will not be the difference between success and failure with this tree right now. To argue this point right now is to do so simply because you can.

As far as the second part of my post is concerned, it really wasn't intended as a "personal jab" at you...it wasn't intended to "incite", either. I was merely commenting on what I saw as a thinly veiled attempt to get one more shot in on Harry. I'm sorry you're so sensitive about it, but this is the game you play here and it's fairly obvious to everyone who reads threads like this one. And yes, I know, my comments here have nothing to do with the subject, bonsai, aesthetics, etc...and you don't need to tell me whether the subject of my posts are appropriate or not.

Dave

 

[Anonymous User]

Okay, now that everyone has made excuses for the poor placement, the tree still has poor placement.

I also agree with some of what Bnut mentioned, more on that later.


Will