All aboard the Mugo train!

[Vance Wood]

The question now is: Am I going to impart the more traditional informal Upright to this tree or more of an adventurous Yamadori style? I am not sure myself but I am interested in what you guys think. Too often we tend to do things by the book so to speak and don't think for ourselves. I guess the real issue is: which is going to make a better bonsai with more enduring quality.

 

[petegreg]

Hard to say, I would go for sth I still don't have on my branches. What do you imagine when you say adventurous yamadori style?

 

[Vance Wood]

If you look at this tree from the point it has been photoed you can see an Informal Upright quite easily. However; if the top third of the tree were jinned out and the remaining branches pulled down to rest in the pocket made by the curved trunk you get more of the older tree, Yamadori look. The point being the one will be a regular bonsai the other the representation of a more ancient looking tree.

I don't want to insult or challenge anyone but; there was an ongoing mantra around here for years, until recently, about the viability of Mugo Pines as bonsai. That thankfully has pretty much gone away. Another Axiom that is supported by an abundance of opinion, and probably evidence, is that you cannot impart the character of a Yamidori to a nursery tree. I am beginning to see some things that are tempting me to believe this to be untrue, and the attempt to achieve this goal is worth the effort and criticizm. Stay tuned to my possible self destruction and personal embarrasment.

 

[petegreg]

I asked, because when I hike in our mountains where they grow naturally, I can see many forms of their growth. But most of them are bushes/windswept bushes that "crawl" on the ground or cascading trees.

Now I understand and if the trunk is aged well I can see the way to create yamadori look.

 

[Vance Wood]

Once I can get people to keep them alive I am most interested in people getting a vision for the possibilities and by doing that they can make good Mugo Bonsai. I am no master but I kind of find my self in the position of the 18th Century composer Soliari (?sp) who was not much of a talent himself but recognized the greatness in Mozart when others did not.

 

[RNbonsai]

Alright, I got one! Got into a shallower nursery pot and that's about it so far, hope I didn't mess the roots up too much, I'll have to add a pic soon

 

[Alain]

Thanks a lot for all that info @Vance Wood !

@petegreg :

So than Alain, you still want to remove that branch? The issue is that according the plan the branch should be half way dry. How will you proceed?
I see Mugo is really a different kind of animal.

You are speaking of the lower branch to the left (the one I pointed with an arrow), right?



If so: yes, I guess I will still get rid of it and turn it into a little deadwood.
Because my idea originally was that the trunk line was the line I put in green, so this branch was to be removed.
I pruned it last summer and following Vance's advise I kept more than 1" to avoid to kill a part of the tree. Obviously I let too long so as you say the branch is just half-dead
The tip is dead but not the last inch or so.

This summer I think I will pluck the buds and then prune the branch again just at the start of the leaving part removing the dead tip.
Like that I assume that next year the branch will be totally dead.

At least this is the plant, unless the numerous buds all over the place give my new little branches that give my a new idea on the way I would like my tree to evolve.

 

[petegreg]

Thank you for response Alain.

You are speaking of the lower branch to the left (the one I pointed with an arrow), right?

If so: yes, I guess I will still get rid of it and turn it into a little deadwood.
Because my idea originally was that the trunk line was the line I put in green, so this branch was to be removed.
I pruned it last summer and following Vance's advise I kept more than 1" to avoid to kill a part of the tree. Obviously I let too long so as you say the branch is just half-dead
The tip is dead but not the last inch or so.

This summer I think I will pluck the buds and then prune the branch again just at the start of the leaving part removing the dead tip.
Like that I assume that next year the branch will be totally dead.

At least this is the plant, unless the numerous buds all over the place give my new little branches that give my a new idea on the way I would like my tree to evolve.

If you really don't need that branch, what about removing the buds right now to expedite it's drying out?

 

[sorce]

right

Only thing better than a new post.....
A fixed post!

Nice!

Sorce

 

[petegreg]

Only thing better than a new post.....
A fixed post!

Nice!

Sorce

Sorce, I haven't got it.

 

[sorce]

Sorce, I haven't got it.

Yes you have!

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

The branch you want to remove is substantially large in comparison to the rest of the tree, probably about 30% of the tree's mass----right? If you allow those buds to develop for a year, maybe two, the potential of losing that living life line all the way to the ground taking the bark with it will be lessened. If you wait till those new buds have put out some growth removing the later will keep the life line alive and removing them later will lessen the reaction the tree will have with their removal. By this time the life line will have (Hopefully) re-routed itself around the loss of such a large branch. Besides; when you do finally decide to make a jin of the branch the existence of new growth along it's length will add great character to the jin that you cannot add with a Dremel or chisel. It is a bummer to have a design option compromised by the death of a portion of the trunk that you did not foresee. This can cause you to have to rethink an entire design.

 

[Alain]

Thank you for response Alain.

If you really don't need that branch, what about removing the buds right now to expedite it's drying out?

I think I will be able to answer that...

When I will have understand that:

The branch you want to remove is substantially large in comparison to the rest of the tree, probably about 30% of the tree's mass----right? If you allow those buds to develop for a year, maybe two, the potential of losing that living life line all the way to the ground taking the bark with it will be lessened. If you wait till those new buds have put out some growth removing the later will keep the life line alive and removing them later will lessen the reaction the tree will have with their removal. By this time the life line will have (Hopefully) re-routed itself around the loss of such a large branch. Besides; when you do finally decide to make a jin of the branch the existence of new growth along it's length will add great character to the jin that you cannot add with a Dremel or chisel. It is a bummer to have a design option compromised by the death of a portion of the trunk that you did not foresee. This can cause you to have to rethink an entire design.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't have a lot of time so I will explain later. The development of The Angry Bird Mugo.

 

[Alain]

I don't have a lot of time so I will explain later.

I don't have a lot of time to think about your answer neither, I'll read it more carefully later and I'm sure I'll get it at one point!

Thanks a lot anyway.

 

[Alain]

The branch you want to remove is substantially large in comparison to the rest of the tree, probably about 30% of the tree's mass----right? If you allow those buds to develop for a year, maybe two, the potential of losing that living life line all the way to the ground taking the bark with it will be lessened. If you wait till those new buds have put out some growth removing the later will keep the life line alive and removing them later will lessen the reaction the tree will have with their removal. By this time the life line will have (Hopefully) re-routed itself around the loss of such a large branch. Besides; when you do finally decide to make a jin of the branch the existence of new growth along it's length will add great character to the jin that you cannot add with a Dremel or chisel. It is a bummer to have a design option compromised by the death of a portion of the trunk that you did not foresee. This can cause you to have to rethink an entire design.

Ok, I had time to read more carefully your answer and I think I understand it but in fact in don't think we are speaking of the same branch.

I was speaking of the little stump (which has bud(s) growing on now) at the lower left of the picture, the one in red bellow:


The one in blue will be the main branch and trunk line of the tree (at least on the left side) and I want to keep it and develop it.
Their are also some buds growing in the foliage there (but I can't take picture of them with my camera) and now that I understand your information regarding buds and how to manage them I see more clearly how I can help this part of the tree to develop: by letting some buds grow and other not in order to place the next branches, by pruning above a new buds in order to shorten the branches and let it develop from there and so on...

Thanks again!
It is really helpful.
I sat in the sun looking at my tree this afternoon and saw a lot of possible developments I missed before with all this new knowledge.

 

[petegreg]

I think Vance wanted to demonstrate how to "grow" jin with some character showing the latest set of pics. If you remove the buds on the left lowest branch, you will have simple jin. If you leave them develop and grow the secondaries and then jin it, the result will be the jin with some smaller jins. Plus sth about a live vein... We'll see.

 

[Vance Wood]

The jin will have some waves in it only a professional wood sculpture could possible recreate. Most Jins from nursery wood look like shaved sticks with no character. If the Jin is made from a branch that has several layers of growth on it it's appearance will be totally different.

 

[Borg]

That's it! I've got to put some money aside so I can get a few more mugos to play around with. I unfortunately murdered my first one a couple years back due to overworking it too quickly. These mugo threads I keep seeing here have really taught me a thing or 12.

 

[RNbonsai]

Here she is