Akadama users: if akadama becomes unavailable?

Not to throw a wrench in the works, I am currently using Clay King. It’s a premix from Japan. Very similiar to Boon Mix, it has both Kanuma and akadama in it. There’s two mixes, one for conifer, and one for Deciduous. And each comes in two sizes.

We have found that it retains a bit too much water, so especially for conifers, we add about 20 to 25 percent pumice to the mix.
 
At present, a huge drawback to DE is particle size. Also, 8822 does break down more than Optisorb. NAPA 8822 is calcined and I think it is just bagged up without a second sieving so you wind up with loads of fines. So for all of its good qualities, it is not quite ready for prime time because of the 3mm or so particle size. If it was 1/4, now we would have something.
 
At present, a huge drawback to DE is particle size. Also, 8822 does break down more than Optisorb. NAPA 8822 is calcined and I think it is just bagged up without a second sieving so you wind up with loads of fines. So for all of its good qualities, it is not quite ready for prime time because of the 3mm or so particle size. If it was 1/4, now we would have something.
The ‘Monto Clay’ sold by Bonsai Jack is 1/4 inch sized Turface....maybe the size increase negates negates some of the negative aspects of the smaller grained Turface.
 
Pretty sure this is the same guy I order from (but I do it through facebook). Seems to be good stuff.

NAPA paid $9 per bag today. 24 quarts per.
 
Has anyone tried Bonsai Jack’s ‘Monto Clay’?

Basically larger sized turface, from the description.

I was really close to clicking "Add to Cart" on a 7 gallon bag of that recently (all of the too-be-sifted oil dri in the garage stopped me). I'm definitely curious about the product, because I like how both Oil-dri and Turface MVP seem to work in our mutual climate.

If only there were someone else within driving distance of Lake Bde Maka Ska that I could split shipping with....
 
I was really close to clicking "Add to Cart" on a 7 gallon bag of that recently (all of the too-be-sifted oil dri in the garage stopped me). I'm definitely curious about the product, because I like how both Oil-dri and Turface MVP seem to work in our mutual climate.

If only there were someone else within driving distance of Lake Bde Maka Ska that I could split shipping with....
Winter in Minneapolis.....silver lining is we have plenty of time to sift :)
 
I was really close to clicking "Add to Cart" on a 7 gallon bag of that recently (all of the too-be-sifted oil dri in the garage stopped me). I'm definitely curious about the product, because I like how both Oil-dri and Turface MVP seem to work in our mutual climate.

If only there were someone else within driving distance of Lake Bde Maka Ska that I could split shipping with....

Be aware. EP Minerals who mines and manufactures all of the DE in the United States, also mines and manufactures calcined clay products. Again THESE ARE NOT THE SAME AT ALL.
 
Be aware. EP Minerals who mines and manufactures all of the DE in the United States, also mines and manufactures calcined clay products. Again THESE ARE NOT THE SAME AT ALL.

I don't think that anyone is suffering under the notion that DE is the same as calcined clay.

BUT... (without having tried DE myself), what I've read leads me to believe that its actual properties are not that different from calcined clay EXCEPT that Turface™ is flat and small.

Bonsai Jack's Monto Clay is NotTurface but fixes the flat and small problems (supposedly). So it interests me.

Their Bonsai Block product (also calcined clay, less likely to be confused for Turface so your trees won't get teased on the playground) is also interesting.
 
An offshoot question, I've been using DLB akadama the past few years, and have liked the quality and hardness of that brand. I have a line on getting some Kotobuki brand akadama this year a bulk buy with some other folks. Has anyone here used this and how does it stand up to the DLB in the hardness category? I have pics of the bags. The first is the two kinds I've used and liked, (used ryussen once and it was awful) and the other one is what I think the kotobuki bag looks like.
View attachment 166154 View attachment 166155

So I switched to the kotobuki brand just this fall. I can't tell you yet how it will handle our cold but it does seem harder than the other brands ice used in the past.
 
Back 15 years ago was getting diatomite imported from Australia, in small, medium and large sizes, large was 1/2 inch or larger chunks. At the time being promoted as a Orchid potting media. I also tried the small and medium grades for bonsai. Great stuff when used as a component of a mix, not good when used as a sole ingredient, as 100% of the mix. The particular distributor that was importing from the Maidenwell mines in Australia went out of business, I have not found a new source yet, I'm going to check out the link @jacob letoile supplied, thanks. There are mines in the USA in similar rock formations, obviously as Napa wouldn't import the stuff from Australia. At the time it was thought important that the deposits be of fresh water diatoms, as salt water deposits run the risk of the the product releasing sea salt when first wetted. I'm not sure this ''issue'' is real or the musings of an excessively well read mind that never tested the real products. Some orchids are exceptionally sensitive to salt.

The diatomite holds a tremendous amount of water, and I must warn users that once sifted and used to repot a tree, immediately soak the tree in water to the depth of the rim of the pot in order to saturate the DE, there is a risk that dry DE will pull water out of fine roots, essentially killing off roots if left in contact while totally dry for any length of time. A 15 minute soaking should be enough. This is only a day one issue, once tree is well watered, it won't be an issue again.

Last, as said many times DE is not the same as Turface. Turface is a calcined clay, its composition is over 20% calcium. DE is fossilized Diatoms, who's composition is pretty much all silicon dioxide, there is some calcium but it is less than 5% and bound up as an insoluble with silicates. Key here is in my LOCAL conditions, acid loving plants hate Turface. My water is medium hard, medium amount of calcium, when combined with turface, leads to azalea decline and death. DE combined with my medium calcium water does not add extra calcium, so the total stays below the azalea's limits. My azaleas do well. Similarly Akadama and Kanuma being volcanic clays do not contain much calcium, usually less than 5%.

If you have very low calcium water for watering your plants Turface might be great for azaleas, but I am convinced the combination of medium to hard water and turface will not be a good combination. At least my experience has lead me to this conclusion. I could be wrong, but for what ever reason, in my local conditions turface and azalea don't mix.
 
Last, as said many times DE is not the same as Turface. Turface is a calcined clay, its composition is over 20% calcium. DE is fossilized Diatoms, who's composition is pretty much all silicon dioxide, there is some calcium but it is less than 5% and bound up as an insoluble with silicates. Key here is in my LOCAL conditions, acid loving plants hate Turface. My water is medium hard, medium amount of calcium, when combined with turface, leads to azalea decline and death. DE combined with my medium calcium water does not add extra calcium, so the total stays below the azalea's limits. My azaleas do well. Similarly Akadama and Kanuma being volcanic clays do not contain much calcium, usually less than 5%.

I don't doubt that Turface does not work for acid loving plants for you, but do you have a source for the 20% calcium stat? Because that doesn't align with my understanding of the composition of Turface (confirmed here by the manufacturer), or PH tests that others have run (see, e.g. chart A here).
 
I don't think that anyone is suffering under the notion that DE is the same as calcined clay.

BUT... (without having tried DE myself), what I've read leads me to believe that its actual properties are not that different from calcined clay EXCEPT that Turface™ is flat and small.


OMG! If you don't know why post? You could not be more wrong if you put effort into it. They are nothing alike and the properties, both physical and chemical are VERY different.
 
OMG! If you don't know why post? You could not be more wrong if you put effort into it. They are nothing alike and the properties, both physical and chemical are VERY different.

In what ways are the physical and chemical properties different that makes a significant difference for growing trees in pots?

Looking at your chart below, I see that DE has a somewhat higher CEC (but, compared to, say, peat, I would put them in the same range) and Turface has a medium water retention (compared to 110%,which I assume is "high")

View attachment 165996
 
In what ways are the physical and chemical properties different that makes a significant difference for growing trees in pots?

Looking at your chart below, I see that DE has a somewhat higher CEC (but, compared to, say, peat, I would put them in the same range) and Turface has a medium water retention (compared to 110%,which I assume is "high")

View attachment 165996

If you want to know, go to EP's website and read that's one thing I did. I really don't have time right now.
 
If you want to know, go to EP's website and read that's one thing I did. I really don't have time right now.

By "EP" I assume you mean epminerals.com.

I read this brochure, where they market their DE and calcined clay (turface) products for the exact same uses. The only difference they list is that DE is less dense. Which is a valid consideration, but not some *huge* difference.

Don't have the login to read any of the "technical data sheets" for the products. Maybe you can point me to one when you have more free time.
 
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