Akadama users: if akadama becomes unavailable?

[Gary McCarthy]

We had someone give an interesting short talk at our last club meeting. He studied all of the available soil components and measured their water contents and porosity. Perhaps not surprisingly, he found that akadama sat right in the middle of the desired target zone (when new, not after it has broken down). All other components were further from that sweet spot. However, he found that you could combine various ingredients such that the resulting water content and porosity were very close to that of akadama. So I think people will survive if akadama becomes unavailable.

I agree Chris. This was a GREAT talk about bonsai soil. It was more about the water retention and oxygen retention properties of the different soil ingredients and how to combine them to get an ideal level to grow our trees in.

To get similar water and oxygen retention properties to akadama you can mix lava rock and pumice. Lava rock and pumice have similar water retention properties to akadama. Lava rock has a higher oxygen retention level and pumice has a lower oxygen retention level. Mixing equal parts lava rock and pumice should get you pretty close to the same levels as akadama.

If you want to save even more money you could substitute growstone for the lava rock.

 

[Anthony]

Thus far our simple mix of 5 mm silica based gravel and aged compost
, if needed 5 mm crushed earthenware brick , will grow anything comfortably
[ and does not break down ] ----------- 30 years + testing.

To adjust ------- aged compost holds 20 times weight in water.
Factor that in.

Plus as we have explored the ball bearing principle, the hand rolled balls of
fired clay with aged compost have also proven to be effective.

As we begin to manufacture the balls, we will expand their use.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JudyB]

Lava rock and pumice have similar water retention properties to akadama.

If you look at the table on page one, you'll find that is not accurate. Akadama is high in water retention, whereas neither lava or pumice have this notation for high water retention. Very useful for bonsai in my estimation.

 

[Gary McCarthy]

If you look at the table on page one, you'll find that is not accurate. Akadama is high in water retention, whereas neither lava or pumice have this notation for high water retention. Very useful for bonsai in my estimation.

I don't mean to be argumentative Judy. But, this is an article written by the person that did the talk for our club - https://fingerlakesbonsai.weebly.com/uploads/3/9/6/3/39634557/bonsai_soil_basics.pdf If you look at the chart on the right at the bottom of the second page it charts the water retention and oxygen retention of some of the common ingredients used in bonsai soil mixes. In his chart lava rock is a little more water retentive than akadama and pumice is a little less water retentive than akadama. But relatively speaking all 3 are pretty close. At least according to his testing.

 

[milehigh_7]

It's imo

If you look at the table on page one, you'll find that is not accurate. Akadama is high in water retention, whereas neither lava or pumice have this notation for high water retention. Very useful for bonsai in my estimation.

You are welcome to your estimation but remember when someone quotes sources you are not arguing with them, rather you are arguing with the source. The only data I added to that table is for de and it comes from the mine's data sheet...

If you look closely DE is superior to lava, pumice or akadama in water retention, oxygen content and CEC. It has several other advantages as well.

 

[Vin]

Finally! This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I don't use the stuff but I am aware of the properties that make it desirable. I think we do ourselves an injustice by not knowing "why." At this time I am really enjoying learning how to grow using DE (Optisorb about 20-30% larger than 8822) as my majority ingredient. I cleaned up the old chart from another thread and added the specs for DE. Here it is if anyone wants it.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS! Akadama and Turface have nearly identical characteristics.

 

[Adair M]

SHIVER ME TIMBERS! Akadama and Turface have nearly identical characteristics.

Except they don’t! Turface is generally smaller and not being basically round in shape, it packs. It also doesn’t break down. Akadama is round, and does break down over time. Akadama soil changes over time.

I don’t care if you use Turface or not. I’m just pointing out misconceptions people have about the stuff.

And about akadama holding as much water as a pumice/lava mix? We add akadama to lava and pumice to retain water. If I want a less water retaining mix, I add pumice. If I want a more water retaining mix, I add akadama.

I don’t know who Gary and coh are referring to about making mixes, my experience is akadama holds more water than either pumice or lava.

MarkyScott did a scientific test on soil substrates, and I think he put in info in the references section. He has also been commissioned to publish his results in a bonsai magazine. I’m pretty sure his testing showed that akadama holds more water than pumice and lava. One thing it probably does not show is the greater water holding potential as akadama breaks down. Only because he didn’t wait months for the akadama begin to break down.

 

[markyscott]

...I think he put in info in the references section...

There’s also a good discussion here too.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-7#post-393831

Very important to sieve to equal grain size to make an apples to apples comparison .

Scott

 

[milehigh_7]

One of the problems with turface is that it is kind of flat and the bonding properties of water keep it from being as free flowing as it should be.

 

[Vin]

Except they don’t! Turface is generally smaller and not being basically round in shape, it packs. It also doesn’t break down. Akadama is round, and does break down over time. Akadama soil changes over time.

I don’t care if you use Turface or not. I’m just pointing out misconceptions people have about the stuff.

I don't use it for many of the reasons you give.

 

[Tieball]

I’m an outlaw....I use BonsaiBlock and Kiryuzuna.

 

[coh]

I don’t know who Gary and coh are referring to about making mixes, my experience is akadama holds more water than either pumice or lava.

I did some simple tests a few years ago and found akadama retained more water than pumice, which retained more water than lava. Turface retained significantly more water than akadama. I think I used similarly sized particles but can't say for sure. May repeat some of these tests this winter. And it is worth noting that the individual who did the tests I mentioned (and Gary linked to), indicated that there were differences in water content/porosity among each of lava, pumice and akadama. In other words, different sources/brands can have somewhat different results.

Anyway, the idea here isn't really to rehash the never ending soil debate, or prove akadama is superior to all other ingredients. It's to discuss what you would do if akadama became unavailable.

 

[milehigh_7]

The benefits to akadama are clearly it's ability to hold water and it's CEC while allowing oxygen to the roots. Those are the things you would need to replace.

 

[Anthony]

The question here is the organic material for breeding the need micro-organisms.
Not the inorganic properties.

One again after the oil seed meal is fermented and then goes to the composted stage
the inorganic mixes are no longer purely inorganic.

Plus peat moss composts in a few months in use.

So by and large you are all using an organic / inorganic mix.

Plus if you are using an organic compound [ oil seed meal 6N ]
how much N actually gets down there?

It would also explain why the oil seed meal is often used on the
refinement and maintain stage. Not much N is needed.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Gary McCarthy]

There’s also a good discussion here too.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-7#post-393831

Very important to sieve to equal grain size to make an apples to apples comparison .

Scott

Wow!!! That's a great thread.

@markyscott I'd be very interested in the methodology that was used to test all the different ingredients.

In regards to the person that Chris and I are referring to, he did write an article on the subject for the The Journal of the American Bonsai Society - https://fingerlakesbonsai.weebly.com/uploads/3/9/6/3/39634557/abs_vol_48_no_4_brian_heltsley.pdf

LOVE THIS STUFF

 

[markyscott]

Wow!!! That's a great thread.

@markyscott I'd be very interested in the methodology that was used to test all the different ingredients.

In regards to the person that Chris and I are referring to, he did write an article on the subject for the The Journal of the American Bonsai Society - https://fingerlakesbonsai.weebly.com/uploads/3/9/6/3/39634557/abs_vol_48_no_4_brian_heltsley.pdf

LOVE THIS STUFF

The methodology is documented here.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-6#post-393657

The information is synthesized here.
https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/introductory-soil-physics.29/

As well as in a series of articles in the last three issues is the ABS Journal. There will be one more in the series.

I’m familiar with the article you referenced - Brian did a nice job with that. Our methodologies are a bit different, but the results are pretty similar. Brain screened out the small size fraction, which is very good, and appreciated the importance of average grain size in controlling water and air saturation. He then compared different grain compositions. I did the same and also looked at how saturation for any single grain composition varies with average grain size.

Scott

 

[Gary McCarthy]

The methodology is documented here.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-6#post-393657

The information is synthesized here.
https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/introductory-soil-physics.29/

As well as in a series of articles in the last three issues is the ABS Journal. There will be one more in the series.

I’m familiar with the article you referenced - Brian did a nice job with that. Our methodologies are a bit different, but the results are pretty similar. Brain screened out the small size fraction, which is very good, and appreciated the importance of average grain size in controlling water and air saturation. He then compared different grain compositions. I did the same and also looked at how saturation for any single grain composition varies with average grain size.

Scott

SUPER. Thanks Scott!!!

Your method is the same as Brian's but he's doing it by weight.

Interesting that your results for akadama are pretty much spot on with Brian's. But other ingredients not so much.

 

[Guy Vitale]

Akadama is not unique to Japan. Many volcanos produce it. There is akadama in the Pacific Northwest. It could be mined and sold

How on earth are the many bonsai professionals in the PNW now working together to get this stuff mined and commercialized? I think the biggest turnoff for Akadama is really the expense, if it were cheaper, more people would use it and discover over a longer pierod of time if it works for them or not. My first experience after spending $50 for a bag was that this stuff broke down, stayed mushy and I wasn't going to buy another $50 bag of this crap. Over the last couple years of reaching out to more professionals I now have a better understanding of how Akadama works and have been playing around with 'Boon' mix' on my more developed trees and am liking what I see.

 

[JudyB]

An offshoot question, I've been using DLB akadama the past few years, and have liked the quality and hardness of that brand. I have a line on getting some Kotobuki brand akadama this year a bulk buy with some other folks. Has anyone here used this and how does it stand up to the DLB in the hardness category? I have pics of the bags. The first is the two kinds I've used and liked, (used ryussen once and it was awful) and the other one is what I think the kotobuki bag looks like.

 

[AZbonsai]

"The question here is the organic material for breeding the need micro-organisms."

@Anthony having been a gardener for a while this is exactly what baffles me about bonsai soils. It seems to me that the majority of bonsai practitioners pay very little attention to the development of micro organisms in the soil choosing to focus on drainage and air flow around the roots of the tree. Gardners do worry about how well their soil drains but it is all about growing dirt. It would be interesting to see what kinds of microbes are actually in a healthy bonsai trees soil to see how much microbial activity there is and what types of bonsai soil fosters this activity the most.