Akadama users: if akadama becomes unavailable?

...How on earth are the many bonsai professionals in the PNW now working together to get this stuff mined and commercialized?...

Akadama is a volcanic soil - an andosol, to be specific. Over 110 million hectares of the earths surface are covered with andosols - they are common and widespread in the Pacific NW. You can find a map in this reference. But unless bonsai becomes much more popular in the US or they find another industrial application, I doubt anyone could make a commercial go of it. Mining operations are extremely expensive as are all the environmental permitting and labor costs. What’s the market? Maybe 5000 bonsai enthusiasts in North America, perhaps 1/2 of whom use akadama. Of that 2500, maybe a few more that will try a domestic version of akadama offset by others that will stick with their tried-and-true brands.

Let’s try a thought experiment:
Expenses:
Startup costs. Land purchase, equipment purchase, environmental permitting, construction etc. $5M
Annual expenses
Labor costs. 5 employees at $30K + payroll taxes and benefits ~ $500K
Equipment maintenance and repair. $50K
Operational costs (gas and power, consumables). $25K
Marketing. $5K
Packaging and Shipping $50K
Inventory maintenance $5K

Let’s call break-even $650K, optimistically, excluding retirement of any debt from the startup costs.

Current market is roughly 2500 people. Let’s assume that all of the other bonsai enthusiasts currently using pine bark also switch to the domestic akadama and all these folks purchase 3 bags per year. That’s a sales potential of 15,000 bags per year. So to break even we’ll need to price each bag at:

$650K/15K = $43 per bag

So even with these very optimistic numbers, you’ll need to price the domestic akadama close to $50/bag to break even - probably higher to retire the startup debt and turn a profit. Sounds like a very shaky business proposition to me.

Now - If you can double or triple your sales by finding other horiticultral or industrial applications, perhaps then we have a going concern and can cut prices to compete with Japanese brands.

S
 
"The question here is the organic material for breeding the need micro-organisms."

@Anthony having been a gardener for a while this is exactly what baffles me about bonsai soils. It seems to me that the majority of bonsai practitioners pay very little attention to the development of micro organisms in the soil choosing to focus on drainage and air flow around the roots of the tree. Gardners do worry about how well their soil drains but it is all about growing dirt. It would be interesting to see what kinds of microbes are actually in a healthy bonsai trees soil to see how much microbial activity there is and what types of bonsai soil fosters this activity the most.

Like this?

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/question.17956/page-4#post-242660
 
@AZbonsai ,

the mix we use is if I remember correctly, the 2nd favourite mix of the ABS,
since 1980 or so.

What we have noticed is that Bonsai exists on old information being dropped
and then later on being re-expressed.

Not to fear, what compost encourages, will also happen when oil seed meal
composts, dust, dead roots, insect and animal poop reaches the soil.
Plus, normally these oil seed meals are used when one is refining or maintaining
mature Bonsai.
Not trunk thickening.....................

So it is a case of 6 of one or half dozen of the other.

We tested the oil seed cakes, and the amount seen being used in images on Youtube,
or Photos, is the equivalent to our placing spoons of aged compost on the inorganic
surface of the soil. Left inorganic when the compost has gone onto the next stage of humus.

Many years ago when sifting we observed the compost gluing itself into shapes similiar
in size to the 5 mm inorganic particles.

The next stage is supposed to be solution as the humus becomes oxides of metals.

Additionally, joking on Bonsai Study Group, we mentioned our use of Mayo-darma.
Trinidad has hills, our central range [ up to 1000 feet ] of clays that have hardened due
to seawater and pressure ----- if memory serves correctly.
These hardened clays at 5 mm with compost will also grow anything well and they
are slightly porous.
The hills are mined for the material used in making cement.

So I really would not be too worried, if you use compost or oil seed meal.
Just perhaps not the - hydroponic way of inorganic fertiliser [ eh Gogeerah :):eek: ]
The tomatoes so grown used to rot on standing in a day or 2 after picking.

There is a book ------------ Teeming with Microbes - Lowenfels
https://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Micr...9892630&sr=8-1&keywords=teeming+with+microbes

You can just buy a second hand copy.
Good Day
Anthony

* You can also try Leca at 5 mm with compost.
Will satisfy, freely draining, easy o2 replenishing, internally water retaining, microbes etc.
Just don't wash your roots free everytime you repot.
 
@JudyB Interesting that you mentioned you used the Ryusen brand of akadama and found it awful. Brian, the speaker at our club, specifically mentioned that there were definitely differences in the different brands of akadama he has tested. The best he found was from Hollow Creek Bonsai which I just noticed is the Ryusen brand - https://www.hollowcreekbonsai.com/e...adama-bonsai-soil-13l-bag-25mm-granules.rhtml This one does say "SUPER HARD AKADAMA". I wonder if the Ryusen brand comes in different hardness???
 
Haha....yes! Should have known. Thread buried deep. Would you say it is not a hot topic or maybe just not with the folks I bonsai with?

I don’t know about your local members. But I do know that maintaining a healthy soil environment is essential for having a microbially active soil.

Scott
 
Akadama is a volcanic soil - an andosol, to be specific. Over 110 million hectares of the earths surface are covered with andosols - they are common and widespread in the Pacific NW. You can find a map in this reference. But unless bonsai becomes much more popular in the US or they find another industrial application, I doubt anyone could make a commercial go of it. Mining operations are extremely expensive as are all the environmental permitting and labor costs. What’s the market? Maybe 5000 bonsai enthusiasts in North America, perhaps 1/2 of whom use akadama. Of that 2500, maybe a few more that will try a domestic version of akadama offset by others that will stick with their tried-and-true brands.

Let’s try a thought experiment:
Expenses:
Startup costs. Land purchase, equipment purchase, environmental permitting, construction etc. $5M
Annual expenses
Labor costs. 5 employees at $30K + payroll taxes and benefits ~ $500K
Equipment maintenance and repair. $50K
Operational costs (gas and power, consumables). $25K
Marketing. $5K
Packaging and Shipping $50K
Inventory maintenance $5K

Let’s call break-even $650K, optimistically, excluding retirement of any debt from the startup costs.

Current market is roughly 2500 people. Let’s assume that all of the other bonsai enthusiasts currently using pine bark also switch to the domestic akadama and all these folks purchase 3 bags per year. That’s a sales potential of 15,000 bags per year. So to break even we’ll need to price each bag at:

$650K/15K = $43 per bag

So even with these very optimistic numbers, you’ll need to price the domestic akadama close to $50/bag to break even - probably higher to retire the startup debt and turn a profit. Sounds like a very shaky business proposition to me.

Now - If you can double or triple your sales by finding other horiticultral or industrial applications, perhaps then we have a going concern and can cut prices to compete with Japanese brands.

S
Thanks for the breakdown Scott, that's too much thinking this early in the morning for me on a Sunday. I know I wasn't the first to have this lightbulb-aha moment, and I have heard of such rumors before, it's mostly hopefthinking on my part.
 
Has anyone tried Bonsai Jack’s ‘Monto Clay’?

Basically larger sized turface, from the description.
 
@JudyB Interesting that you mentioned you used the Ryusen brand of akadama and found it awful. Brian, the speaker at our club, specifically mentioned that there were definitely differences in the different brands of akadama he has tested. The best he found was from Hollow Creek Bonsai which I just noticed is the Ryusen brand - https://www.hollowcreekbonsai.com/e...adama-bonsai-soil-13l-bag-25mm-granules.rhtml This one does say "SUPER HARD AKADAMA". I wonder if the Ryusen brand comes in different hardness???
I got that very same Ryusen that your speaker was talking about, got it from Hollow creek, and was labeled super hard. It is definitely softer than the other two that I've used, and had much more dust in it than the other ones. That's why I'd like to find a user of this Kotobuki brand and see how it stands up.
 
@AZbonsai ,

you may find this site useful -

http://www.gardenmyths.com/organic-fertilizer-real-value/

Lots to read and chew on .
Good Day
Anthony

*I am looking for information on when you add fermented oil seed meal as
poo cakes to the soil to compost ------------ how much -------- N actually goes into
the soil.
The oil seed cakes start at 6 to 8 N

Our compost uses - leucaena leucocephala - similar to Rabbit manure - 2.4 N 1.4 P 0.6 K
plus micro nutirents and lots of yard weeds
 
I got that very same Ryusen that your speaker was talking about, got it from Hollow creek, and was labeled super hard. It is definitely softer than the other two that I've used, and had much more dust in it than the other ones. That's why I'd like to find a user of this Kotobuki brand and see how it stands up.

I was going to buy some of that next spring. Glad I saw your post first.

I wonder what brand Ryan Niel uses.
 
I was going to buy some of that next spring. Glad I saw your post first.
I'm not the only person I know that has had issues with that brand...

I wound up emailing Jonas from Bonsai tonight, the source for the Kotobuki and he does carry both DRL and Kotobuki akadama, he tells me that he doesn't seem any difference between the two. I've been happy with the Double Red Line Brand, so this Kotobuki should be fine as well.
 
I'm not the only person I know that has had issues with that brand...

I wound up emailing Jonas from Bonsai tonight, the source for the Kotobuki and he does carry both DRL and Kotobuki akadama, he tells me that he doesn't seem any difference between the two. I've been happy with the Double Red Line Brand, so this Kotobuki should be fine as well.

Thanks @JudyB !

Where did you get your Double Red Line brand of akadama?
 
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Pretty sure this is the same guy I order from (but I do it through facebook). Seems to be good stuff.
Any cheaper thru FB? Would like that link..owen told me that Meco is selling their remaining supply, and Cass as well and might not restock
 
Any cheaper thru FB? Would like that link..owen told me that Meco is selling their remaining supply, and Cass as well and might not restock
Nope, same price and same origin (town). Bummer about Meco, he's been one of my go-to sources. He's come up for our club show a couple of times, and of course for the National Exhibitions.

Come to the dark side coh.. pick up that bag of NAPA.. feed em sausages..
I have some NAPA that I'll be experimenting with, but as long as I can get akadama at a reasonable price, there's no reason to switch. But I'd like to be prepared in case the stuff becomes unavailable or the price skyrockets due to reduced supply.

If I could find enough people who wanted to go in on a pallet, I'd go that route. Shipping costs as much or more than the akadama, but the price winds up cheaper than ordering it by the flat rate box.
 
Any cheaper thru FB? Would like that link..owen told me that Meco is selling their remaining supply, and Cass as well and might not restock
Dung Nguyen on FB and SoCal Bonsai Supply, about as inexpensive as I've seen, again, large flat rate box jacks the price up.
 
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