Does everybody remove JWP flower buds?

[Japonicus]

I didn't realize till last year that the flower buds on my WP's sapped the trees energy.
I've let the flower buds grow on and pollenate each of the last 14 yrs I've had this one JWP
appreciating the colour and never removing a one. Mine are coming into colour but still developing.

Per the videos I've watched on it, before pollen disperses when performing the task, is the best time.

It appears to be quite the tedious task if one had several WPs, I'm down to 2, one EWP, one JWP so
not too bad a chore here, but are there better signals as to the best time to remove than just before pollination?
The longer they're on, the more energy they remove.

 

[Japonicus]

The thought entered my head that perhaps minor zone strengthening could be achieved
by allowing the flower buds freedom in the strong zones, and remove all in the weaker zones
but that thought didn't last too long. Still would remove energy, just that much less, so pinching
candles reentered the thought process for balancing energy. I was just beginning to wonder if
the flower buds could be used as a zone tool in a lesser form than candle pinching.
Candle pinching was another trespass I performed each year, with good even results the following Spring.
This Spring however, as I've allowed the tree more freedom over the last 2 years, the candles are more numerous
and more uneven. I believe last year it was very common to have 2 candles on each terminal, and the tree was
cited as weak. Now I have more rambunctious bud formation. I will wire the tree this year.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

but are there better signals as to the best time to remove than just before pollination?
The longer they're on, the more energy they remove.

No. They don’t expend much energy, and you’re risking damaging the candles by handling them. I’ve never noticed any decline in growth by letting the tree do what it does naturally.

 

[Japonicus]

Good evening Brian Thanks for stopping by.
Ya know, I'm more concerned with damaging buds wiring a branch (I have faith in steady hands)
than this task, and my wiring skills or lack thereof naturally trends this way. Neutral yet on the task itself.

As for the task of removing them, it's new to me, and I never thought that my WP was weak
when it actually was, so I was watching videos on the tube about WP bonsai, when I ran across
this video

...so I was just at the mercy of believing what I was seeing. I don't have multiples to do a controlled study on
so receiving input from your experience says a lot really. My own experience was allowing them to grow
and candle pinching every year, took the tree slowly down a declining path, to the point of only 2 buds/terminal last year.
At least the candle pinching did.
I know...this thread sucks without pictures. The flower buds are still developing, and will show better soon.
I may break off a few flower buds in the stronger apex zone, where back buds show strength and leave the rest
just to see how it responds if my fingers are up to the task. If not, I'll let them be.

 

[0soyoung]

I don't have multiples to do a controlled study

Branches are largely autonomous. Carefully pluck the pollen cones from a group of candles, somehow mark the ones you did and later compare vigor, neck length, of those you did with those you did not.

candle pinching every year, took the tree slowly down a declining path, to the point of only 2 buds/terminal last year.
At least the candle pinching did.

So, quit pinching. Again, you could do this with another branch and compare the consequences. It is possibly better to not pinch at all, but to cut back long shoots, keeping 5 rows of fascicles, say, instead - right after the needle sheaths drop. Again, you can do this to another branch and compare the results this fall, next spring, and most of the summer before you pick your poison or possibly repeat the treatments again (season after season repetition ought to amplify the effects).
It is easier with distinct trees than to do it with one mostly because of the hassles marking the branch treatments in a way that either doesn't disappear in the course of a year or permanently disfigures your tree.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Nope,

 

[JudyB]

I have taken them off carefully in years where there was a lot of them. You can get long necks on the branches where nothing will grow as they swell. If you are careful, they just pop right off. I had no trouble when I did that.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Sounds like your “candle pinching” is likely the culprit of a weakening tree. That’s not really a good technique for JWP.

Find someone who has trees you admire and do what they do. You can always find someone on the internet to support what you think you should do, but It’s of no value if their trees aren’t healthy or beautiful.

 

[Adair M]

Two candles on each terminal is ideal. You don’t want lots and lots of candles, you’ll just have to thin them to two!

Your tree was cited as being weak? Because it only has two candles at each terminal?

Perhaps a few photos of your tree would be helpful. And, if it is a JWP, knowing which cultivar or knowing something about it’s growth habits would be instructive. Because, you see, not all JWP grow the same! The dwarf cultivars produce more buds than the non-dwarfs, and you have to treat the two types differently.

I have several varieties of JWP. I just took some pictures:



As you can see, they vary considerably in color, needle length, density, buds per terminal, etc. Each one needs to be managed a little differently!

Generally speaking I don’t remove the male pollen cones until they fall off at the lightest touch. Female cones, those I remove as soon as I see them.

It depends...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

nope, I don't worry myself about pollen cones, on any of my pines.

 

[0soyoung]

I have taken them off carefully in years where there was a lot of them. You can get long necks on the branches where nothing will grow as they swell. If you are careful, they just pop right off. I had no trouble when I did that.

I agree, except that I've seen no effect is shortening the neck.
IOW, I think the neck length is baked in from the instant it was programmed to make pollen cones.

 

[JudyB]

I agree, except that I've seen no effect is shortening the neck.
IOW, I think the neck length is baked in from the instant it was programmed to make pollen cones.

Could be, I never did a comparison, but it seems like the swelling of those flowers would stretch the area out as they grow.

 

[Japonicus]

Good afternoon @Adair M Thank you for your input and queries, and sharing some pictures of your WPs
Below is the tree as it was when I purchased it in 2005 as it shows in my folder under the modified date.
Created date is in the year 1969 it says. I was 6 years old, and digital cameras did not exist,
so the folder the pictures were moved from hard drive in '05...

^ 2005

No, the tree was cited as weak last year, who knows, may've been you, but as you can see from the following photos,
the tree is NOT in better shape for haven been in my care for 14 years It's is a bit lean, not robust at all.


I repotted it this Spring, before some would have, but for none the worse, it is recovering well and growing on.
The picture in my avatar is of this tree taken at night, this Spring just after repot, and looks better than the background noise
I present with it today.

About the terminals...as you see it now, is when I would normally be pinching the longest of the candles
that are beginning to open, and coming back lower down repeating in a couple weeks or as they begin to open
and are obviously done elongating. Now, as you pointed out last year, I am allowing the candles freedom to gain vigour.
Adair, is it best to thin to \ / two buds now or to do that with sheers when I cut the shoots after the sheaths fall/harden off?
+ can you ID thisI believe it to be one of the Azumas. Was not considered when I bought it on eBay.
I can't even remember how much I paid for it but was between $150 and $250 then.
I wish I had areas and props like @JudyB photographs her trees. Some day.
This tree really looks better than the pics of it today show.

 

[JudyB]

Is it possible that this could be EWP? Those candles are long!

 

[Japonicus]

Is it possible that this could be EWP? Those candles are long!

No. Note the 1" long needle with my finger in picture above of the tree. Also EWP has a lighter colour needle.

This is a dwarf EWP needles probably 3" long and lighter colour, more dainty/fine/soft.

 

[Japonicus]

@JudyB I believe the JWP is responding favorably to the recent repotting and fertilizing last year.
I intentionally did not wire much on the JWP last year. Oh, and that brings me to another video I watched on youtube
Kenichi Abe-Bonsai Focus where with candles, a JWP was fully styled/pruned and fully wired wired and guy wired.

I can't understand a word other than bonsai, but I really like the offset tool he's using for the jin.
Anyway, so much for waiting till Autumn...

 

[Wilson]

@JudyB I believe the JWP is responding favorably to the recent repotting and fertilizing last year.
I intentionally did not wire much on the JWP last year. Oh, and that brings me to another video I watched on youtube
Kenichi Abe-Bonsai Focus where with candles, a JWP was fully styled/pruned and fully wired wired and guy wired.

I can't understand a word other than bonsai, but I really like the offset tool he's using for the jin.
Anyway, so much for waiting till Autumn...

That was an interesting styling, not what I was expecting from an older artist.

 

[Adair M]

I’ll watch your video tonight.

Meanwhile, how much sun is this tree getting? Candles will extend long if the tree is really vigorous and strong, and everything is great...

OR...

if it’s nit getting enough sun. It grows long thin shoots “looking” for the sun.

If you notice on all my JWP, the branches are fairly dense, and the shoots are short, with mostly needles and very few pollen cones. They are all in full sun. Full sun keeps the foliage “tight”, and helps prevent “legginess”.

Also...

I’m not really sure I understand what you’re doing by trimmiming after the sheaths drop. I don’t trim them at all then. They are done growing for the year. That’s when I fertilize them! To get them strong for the following spring.

I don’t fertilize in the spring, I’ve found that fertilizing in the spring produces long internodes and longer needles.

To manage growth, when the candles elongate, and there’s a bunch of candles coming from one terminal, I will completely remove the strong ones, and keep two “weak” ones. This is appropriate up in the apex and other strong locations on the tree. In weaker places on the tree, I do just the opposite!

Wiring the tree out in the fall, after sheath drop (September for me) exposes the interior to the sun and keeps the interior foliage alive, and encourages back budding on old wood.

I do selective pinching during the spring to “balance” candles. It can be tricky! When candles are extending, and it appears they are about to show needles, sometimes the tree has fooled me, and what I thought were going to be needles were actually pollen cones! I have accidentally pinched off all the needles, leaving only pollen cones! I’ve never seriously harmed the tree, it’s budded again nearby, but I thought it was worth the mention as something to be aware of.

Your tree looks like it’s not getting enough sun. If you’re going to pinch, pinch in the spring. DON’T pinch after needle sheath drop.

 

[Japonicus]

That was an interesting styling, not what I was expecting from an older artist.

...and beautiful to have an assistant work in unison without obvious communication.
I wonder what that offset jin tool is called?

 

[Japonicus]

I’ll watch your video tonight.

Meanwhile, how much sun is this tree getting? Candles will extend long if the tree is really vigorous and strong, and everything is great...

OR...

if it’s nit getting enough sun. It grows long thin shoots “looking” for the sun.

If you notice on all my JWP, the branches are fairly dense, and the shoots are short, with mostly needles and very few pollen cones. They are all in full sun. Full sun keeps the foliage “tight”, and helps prevent “legginess”.

Also...

I’m not really sure I understand what you’re doing by trimmiming after the sheaths drop. I don’t trim them at all then. They are done growing for the year. That’s when I fertilize them! To get them strong for the following spring.

I don’t fertilize in the spring, I’ve found that fertilizing in the spring produces long internodes and longer needles.

To manage growth, when the candles elongate, and there’s a bunch of candles coming from one terminal, I will completely remove the strong ones, and keep two “weak” ones. This is appropriate up in the apex and other strong locations on the tree. In weaker places on the tree, I do just the opposite!

Wiring the tree out in the fall, after sheath drop (September for me) exposes the interior to the sun and keeps the interior foliage alive, and encourages back budding on old wood.

I do selective pinching during the spring to “balance” candles. It can be tricky! When candles are extending, and it appears they are about to show needles, sometimes the tree has fooled me, and what I thought were going to be needles were actually pollen cones! I have accidentally pinched off all the needles, leaving only pollen cones! I’ve never seriously harmed the tree, it’s budded again nearby, but I thought it was worth the mention as something to be aware of.

Your tree looks like it’s not getting enough sun. If you’re going to pinch, pinch in the spring. DON’T pinch after needle sheath drop.

Adair thanks for taking the time and spelling a couple things out.
I will probably take a couple replies to be better detailed, particularly with questions, but in short...
...the tree is in full Sun. I only moved it to the N side of the house now n then with winds prevailing in the forecast
since it was repotted. My N side gets Sun from rise till maybe 1pm, then when winds relax, back into full Sun.
Dealing with nursing home and assisted living and family in from both ends of the country, working 6 days/wk
I will have to get into more detail in my next reply.
Oh, and yesss I've always fed in Spring beginning with fish 5-1-1 first month when buds swell. Sorry.
Normally with my Spring pinching reducing to 1/4 original length, the following Spring produced very even length candles.
Thanks!