Does everybody remove JWP flower buds?

[0soyoung]

Could be, I never did a comparison, but it seems like the swelling of those flowers would stretch the area out as they grow.

I ran out to check my 7 JWP and there's not a single pollen cone on any of them this year! But a couple of my JBP do. The look just like this example



The pollen cones are widely spaced so they are not expanding against one another and stretching the neck longer.

Now I notice in Japonicus's pic that they are also widely separated on his JWP as well. This is how I remember them to be on my p. parviflora 'Aoi' as well.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Is it possible that this could be EWP? Those candles are long!

Looks like JWP to me. If it was EWP, it would be dense. Here is my Zuisho JWP in the ground, it’s growing like crazy.

 

[Japonicus]

I’ll watch your video tonight.

Meanwhile, how much sun is this tree getting? Candles will extend long if the tree is really vigorous and strong, and everything is great...

OR...
Let's assume Spring feeding based on your further input here, + I will add regained vigour and relief with some fresh roots.
Last year after Spring passed, this trees rootball grew dense so to be difficult to water properly.


If you notice on all my JWP, the branches are fairly dense, and the shoots are short, with mostly needles and very few pollen cones. They are all in full sun. Full sun keeps the foliage “tight”, and helps prevent “legginess”.

Also...

I’m not really sure I understand what you’re doing by trimmiming after the sheaths drop. I don’t trim them at all then. They are done growing for the year. That’s when I fertilize them! To get them strong for the following spring.

So, quit pinching. Again, you could do this with another branch and compare the consequences. It is possibly better to not pinch at all, but to cut back long shoots, keeping 5 rows of fascicles, say, instead - right after the needle sheaths drop.

0soyoung is not the only one to recommend cutting shoots to gain vigour in place of removing lengths (pinching) of candles.

I don’t fertilize in the spring, I’ve found that fertilizing in the spring produces long internodes and longer needles.
Ahh, this is good input, and trying to decipher one of my current issues. Thanks for trying to wrap your head around
so many unknowns, and hitting on several causes and effects. Somethings going to fit, and this is one of the puzzle pieces.

To manage growth, when the candles elongate, and there’s a bunch of candles coming from one terminal, I will completely remove the strong ones, and keep two “weak” ones. This is appropriate up in the apex and other strong locations on the tree. In weaker places on the tree, I do just the opposite!
This I've done since I've owned the tree, and it has been quite happily balanced in candle and needle habits
until this year. I still have many terminals with 2 candles, but more than not, have multiples.
I think I may jog your memory a tad here. I started a thread shortly after joining BN, "Before I cut on my White Pine today.
I revealed that the only wisdom I had on pines in general, was from the Bonsai Today Master Series book on white and black pines.
At least I've not killed any of my pines save for rust on my first pine, JBP last year. Already sprayed once this Spring...
Anyway, this technique you mention is what I've done till this year when I've been told to allow the candles to harden off, the cut back
here on BN, to gain strength. I think I have more pollen cones now than ever. Certainly along a longer length of the longer candles.
Ok that sounded redundant. But the fact that I have back budding on old wood, longer "happy" candles, my guess is that vigour
is far from gone.


Wiring the tree out in the fall, after sheath drop (September for me) exposes the interior to the sun and keeps the interior foliage alive, and encourages back budding on old wood.

I do selective pinching during the spring to “balance” candles. It can be tricky! When candles are extending, and it appears they are about to show needles, sometimes the tree has fooled me, and what I thought were going to be needles were actually pollen cones! I have accidentally pinched off all the needles, leaving only pollen cones! I’ve never seriously harmed the tree, it’s budded again nearby, but I thought it was worth the mention as something to be aware of.
Ya know, I have a pss poor memory when it comes to many many things. Better than most in other facets of life, but I just
cannot remember which occurred 1st, in the past, pollen cones, or candle pinching. I struggle with such details, I apologize. Glad to be alive though.

If you’re going to pinch, pinch in the spring. DON’T pinch after needle sheath drop.

(I replied above to specifics best I could in blue text please expand)

Adair, with what little tid bits of information I've given...

Is there a time you would lengthen candles and cut shoots rather than pinching?

Would you do the balancing pinch technique on this tree, this year? and beginning now?

 

[Adair M]

I think your problem is spring fertilizing.

If you look back at my JWP foliage examples, you’ll see they’re all pretty tight. I do give them a bit of fish emulsion. But not heavy spring fertilizing.

Oh! One thing I do give my White pines is Julian Adam’s trace minerals! Hmm..., I’ve forgotten to give them this year... now where’s that bottle???

By the way, that Pine Masters book is pretty confusing. At least it is to me. It’s really not a book it’s a collection of reprinted articles from Bonsai Today. So, there’s lots of different authors, and different methodologies presented. And sometimes they conflict. So, take that book with a grain of salt!

Re: pinching spring shoots...

I recently spoke with Tyler Sherrard about JWP candle management. Tyler was an apprentice to Shinjuku Suzuki for five years, and styled a JWP for one of Shinji’s clients which won Kokofu. Anyway, Tyler knows I have a number of JWP. And he told me that the key is spring candle pinching for balance.

If you want to let a Shoot grow to build strength, you can, but when you cut back, you cut back to another branch. You don’t cut back to needles. Those needles may or may not produce a bud.

You can choose to follow whoever’s advice you like. I’d make sure they know what they’re talking about.

These are some of mine, and they get pinched in the spring for balance: not every shoot, mind you, only the long ones.

 

[Japonicus]

@Adair M thanks for sharing your wonderful collection, or that part of it.
Really like the 3rd one with the cat in it. Not because of the cat....
I have the trace minerals here. A tree the size of your 3rd pic, how much trace would you use 1 Tsp?

Perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a good book or source for JWP development and refinement.

I began removing the ripe flower buds on one shoot, and though confident that I would not damage the candle
in general, the thought of possibly removing new undeveloped fascicular buds halted my efforts.

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M thanks for sharing your wonderful collection, or that part of it.
Really like the 3rd one with the cat in it. Not because of the cat....
I have the trace minerals here. A tree the size of your 3rd pic, how much trace would you use 1 Tsp?

Perhaps you could steer me in the direction of a good book or source for JWP development and refinement.

I began removing the ripe flower buds on one shoot, and though confident that I would not damage the candle
in general, the thought of possibly removing new undeveloped fascicular buds halted my efforts.

A teaspoon.

Because there is such a large variation in the trees, and the way they grow, there are so many “it depends”, it makes it hard to find a book that that can provide guideance.

I suggest you find a mentor to guide you. That way the two of you can discuss the tree, talk about when to do this, and when to do that...

Oh, I watched your video with the Japanese dude... he did all that work during the spring, which is not a good time to do that kind of work of JWP. It was done for the video, of course, but it’s a shame they did it at that non-optimal time of year.

 

[bwaynef]

No JWP here, (still trying to wrap my head around them), but thanks for the reminder of the MicroMax from Julian Adams.

 

[Dav4]

No JWP here, (still trying to wrap my head around them), but thanks for the reminder of the MicroMax from Julian Adams.

I was the same way.... trying to wrap my head around them... until Adair told me they're actually much easier then JBP and they actually do pretty well in the SE.... sold!

 

[Japonicus]

I suggest you find a mentor to guide you. That way the two of you can discuss the tree, talk about when to do this, and when to do that...

Seeing your trees, you just might have enough patience

Oh, I watched your video with the Japanese dude... he did all that work during the spring, which is not a good time to do that kind of work of JWP. It was done for the video, of course, but it’s a shame they did it at that non-optimal time of year.

Precisely...now what's that offset jinning tool called? I wouldn't afford one, but never hurts to keep an eye out.

 

[Japonicus]

No JWP here, (still trying to wrap my head around them), but thanks for the reminder of the MicroMax from Julian Adams.

Yes MicroMax, I cannot find mine.
Like Dad said if you can do BP WP should be just as cultivatable.
I'm not seeing one more difficult than the other, but my WP did h=get more leggy than my BPs.
Mugos for me are as auto pilot set and forget almost, as you can get with pines.

I was the same way.... trying to wrap my head around them... until Adair told me they're actually much easier then JBP and they actually do pretty well in the SE.... sold!

Good to hear you say this Dave! Where would you estimate the cutoff to be, geographically, in the South for WP?
I see tons of pines driving down towards Eglin AFB in Florida, but don't see WP in the stands of trees along the road.
http://www.treesforme.com/fl_pinus.html

 

[Dav4]

Yes MicroMax, I cannot find mine.
Like Dad said if you can do BP WP should be just as cultivatable.
I'm not seeing one more difficult than the other, but my WP did h=get more leggy than my BPs.
Mugos for me are as auto pilot set and forget almost, as you can get with pines.

Good to hear you say this Dave! Where would you estimate the cutoff to be, geographically, in the South for WP?
I see tons of pines driving down towards Eglin AFB in Florida, but don't see WP in the stands of trees along the road.
http://www.treesforme.com/fl_pinus.html

For growing JWP as bonsai, I suspect the southern limit for good growth is right around Atlanta. Fwiw, Atlanta, being in the piedmont, is close to '1000 above sea level, and that actually tempers the summer heat a bit and provides cool to cold winters, though still pretty short. Moving south from Atlanta, you move into the coastal plain, which, being closer to sea level, is hotter, more humid, and has a warmer and even shorter winter. After watching a collected ponderosa and 2 collected lodgepole pines languish and eventually die after my move south, I was leary about growing JWP here, as it's considered an alpine species. Since the move, I've worked with several quite old and healthy JWP specimens at a local bonsai collection, Adair clearly is doing well with them (Though he is almost as far north in GA as you can go and higher in elevation then me), and Tyler Sherrod, who's located in NC, says they pretty much thrive here. I do know that EWP grow naturally into northern GA, but prefer to be up in the mountains.

 

[Japonicus]

I believe another identifying factor, (correct me if I'm wrong) between EWP and Parviflora
is the pollen cones on EWP do not have the purple colour to them.



They look more like this (still more bland, see next pic) from the beginning till they're spent.
Once the colour on this one begins to fade, pollen is more easily displaced.

I looked through and found not as many multiple terminals to deal with, than I thought. There's as many instances where the terminals
are so close to other new shoots identical to the terminals that they 1st appeared to be from the same end/terminal point, but in fact are
set back from that twin point less than 1/4", more like 1/8" no more than 3/16". Should these be counted as terminals to be reduced to just 2 yet?
If so, I would think the set back one(s), if in a desirable position, should be kept. This reduces the actual terminal to singular or none depending on strength/numbers.

Here's one such instance, one candle removed maybe a week ago already.
More of these areas have filled in by swelling to this point where now they're more as one point, terminal. Where before it appeared to only have 2 terminals
upon closer inspection.
Thing here though in this pic, is the terminals are missing visible needles, whereas the 2 that are set back where my thumb is
have nice short shoots underway. I will play the wait and see game on the terminals here, to see if they get needles where the pollen
cones are or not before I remove them. It appears I've candle pinched there where the energy was obvious. I might have, but most of what scrupulous pinching
I did this year, was in the apex, and no more than 2 or 3 candles any lower on the tree, yet. This could have been one of those zones. It is more even now, and much less
pinching than previous years. I have a weak secondary branch in the back I'm allowing all multiples to extend, then will cut back to 2 later.

 

[Japonicus]

@Adair M I sure would appreciate your input to my results here this year...nasty I say.
This is the 1st year I have not pinched the candles on this JWP, awaiting sheath drop for shoot pruning
to promote back budding and increase vigour. My results are profound and remarkable.
Everywhere I did not pinch, the pollen cones grew exponentially longer than ever before
(I did pinch a couple of extra long candles this year, but very few, and have very few normal short necked shoots).


Makes it look like I need to remove all of this years growth.
For the moment...pending your input, I will never, not pinch candles in the Spring as they elongate.
It has been your advice (and Ryan Neils') to not pinch, so what's going on here?

 

[Japonicus]

Here's a little video of it, nothing special, but cannot help but wonder if this is a result
of a 1st taste of freedom. I do not think it is cultivar specific.

 

[Adair M]

I don’t pinch all the candles, but I do pinch the really strong ones. If there are two growing from a single terminal, and one is stronger than the other, I will pinch the stronger one back to match the weaker one. If I get three new shoots, I normally remove the middle one (the strongest).

I don’t fertilize in the spring. That can create long internodes and long necks. I wait until the sheaths dry up and fall off, (needles have hardened off) before applying fertilizer.

If your spring is really wet with a lot of rain, you will get leggier growth, and there’s just not anything you can do about it.

Zuisho, I DO pinch back. It can send out really long shoots if you don’t.

Don’t count on backbudding. Keep interior shoots alive if you can, and layer your pads. If you get a back bud, you’ll be lucky! It happens, but far less often than JBP.

 

[Adair M]

Don’t cut off all this year’s growth! You might kill it!

Just wire it all out in the early fall.

 

[Japonicus]

Don’t cut off all this year’s growth! You might kill it!

Just wire it all out in the early fall.

I know, that's the problem. Will do.

 

[Adair M]

I know, that's the problem. Will do.

Did you fertilize it?

 

[Adair M]

Here's a little video of it, nothing special, but cannot help but wonder if this is a result
of a 1st taste of freedom. I do not think it is cultivar specific.

In your video, it looks like there are places where multiple new shoots are coming from one terminal. And several appear to be growing straight up, and there are smaller shoots around the base. You can just remove those shoots with the long tall necks if there are smaller shoots, or even just a single shoot remaining.

I just checked my JWP, and none have long necks.

 

[Japonicus]

Did you fertilize it?

Initially as buds began to swell as always in the past, yes, then I picked up on your clues about long internodes.
I had always fed normally at awakening through early Fall skipping heavy chemical feedings in the heat, but using
Espoma and fish or fish + seaweed in those hotter months.

In your video, it looks like there are places where multiple new shoots are coming from one terminal. And several appear to be growing straight up, and there are smaller shoots around the base. You can just remove those shoots with the long tall necks if there are smaller shoots, or even just a single shoot remaining.

I just checked my JWP, and none have long necks.

Thank you for picking up on that. I had thought about that as well, never crossed my mind while trying to catch a breezy moment
with the chimes and beat Sun down rolling the camera. For that I would've used a tripod, still may do just that another day, but pretty sure I get the gist.
I like to be certain, not on the fence "I think this is where I'm going with this". I was just baffled with such overly long necks that I'd never experienced
before. Normally, I pinch the candles as they are ripe, wherever they may be a little longer (less pinched) in weaker areas and needle length has always been
very even throughout. I will get the tripod out and see if we're on the same page soon as I can.
Thank you
EDIT : Oh, and would I wait till sheath drop still to do this maintenance shoot removal?