Zelkova

[cmeg1]

Will be applying wire real soon as leaves are starting to fall off the trees.I am obviously getting impatient to post.
I do have my game plan worked out for next season.I am getting away from colanders and going to build shallow 12" grow boxes from wood.
I am also going to Definately make the switch to akadama and get away from the potting soil.I used it this season in a pot and am confident it will work for my bonsai.
I am going to test the approach of fertilizing zero nitrogen ferts all of the season the zelkova except a couple chemical feeds in spring to wake them up.Learn by doing.
I seen it recommended a few times for Zelkova.They are going to get organic bloom with every watering.
Going to buy wire this Tuesday and maybe strip the rest of the leaves and get to it.

 

[Adair M]

You can use copper with zelkova. This will allow you rouse MUCH thinner wire than if you use aluminum.

Monitor it carefully to make sure it doesn't cut in.

 

[cmeg1]

I will be able to buy wire this Friday, but in the meantime my tree has a little color.

 

[GrimLore]

I will be able to buy wire this Friday, but in the meantime my tree has a little color.

Nice colors indeed - one of the few things I like about cooler seasons!

Grimmy

 

[Adair M]

Next spring it's time you started doing something like this:

 

[cmeg1]

Next spring it's time you started doing something like this:

View attachment 85526

Yes,I am building 12" grow boxes from white wood and planting them in straight akadama.
Some of the air layers have such dense roots,I wonder if they are fused already.I will not know till spring.I am excited with the grow boxes.
Thanks Adair

 

[music~maker]

Next spring it's time you started doing something like this:

View attachment 85526

That nebari is going to be killer! Please post updates on this one as it develops. Always fun to see the progress of trees developed like this.

 

[Adair M]

Unfortunately, this one is dead. Not because of the work you see here. That worked extremely well. It was the next year. I pulled it up, trimmed back the roots and replanted it. Then, we had a late spring freeze, and like a dummy, I left it outside. It froze.

It was really a wonderful little tree.

Cmeg1, the key to success with this technique is to securely fasten the trunk to the board. I use coarse sheet rock screws. You literally have to do a reverse trunk chop! Only you're doing it with the roots. The bottom of the trunk should be flat. Make it look as if the tree was an air layer!

If there's a little section of the circumference of the trunk where there are no roots, no worries. Once you get the trunk attached, or maybe as you're tightening it down, slip some damp spaghnum moss under that edge of the trunk. Roots will come.

This is the technique to use on deciduous trees. You can, and should, repot deciduous trees every year. The colander technique is for conifers where you leave the root ball undisturbed for 3 or 4 years.

 

[music~maker]

Unfortunately, this one is dead. Not because of the work you see here. That worked extremely well. It was the next year. I pulled it up, trimmed back the roots and replanted it. Then, we had a late spring freeze, and like a dummy, I left it outside. It froze.

You can, and should, repot deciduous trees every year. The colander technique is for conifers where you leave the root ball undisturbed for 3 or 4 years.

That's too bad. I hate losing trees to the cold.

As for repotting every year - presumably this varies by what stage of development you are at. It makes sense to do this when developing minor branches and for ramification/leaf reduction training, but I've found that when developing trunk/nebari/major branches at early stages, there seems to be value in just leaving it alone in a nursery pot for 2-3 years or so between re-pots. I still prune foliage/branches along the way, but I often leave the roots untouched for awhile.

Thoughts?

 

[sorce]

Thoughts

Please.

I've been so happy to be able to finally leave some alone....
Good surface starts, good planter basket, good soil......

I figure once you get what should be visible surface roots correct, you could leave em awhile. At least in Colanders.

Sorce

 

[cmeg1]

Adair,
Yes I am thinking that the zelkova will be happier its root tips growing in some quality soil instead of the colander a and potting soil.
Thanks

 

[Adair M]

That's too bad. I hate losing trees to the cold.

As for repotting every year - presumably this varies by what stage of development you are at. It makes sense to do this when developing minor branches and for ramification/leaf reduction training, but I've found that when developing trunk/nebari/major branches at early stages, there seems to be value in just leaving it alone in a nursery pot for 2-3 years or so between re-pots. I still prune foliage/branches along the way, but I often leave the roots untouched for awhile.

Thoughts?

We're talking deciduous here... The earlier you get those radial roots going, the better. Too often, the roots will become unbalanced, and you're fighting poor nebari for the rest of your life. When the tree is young, you can stop the big roots from becoming TOO big, and you can induce new smaller roots on those places that don't have any. Once the tree gets big, the difficulty increases by several orders of magnitude.

Building a quality deciduous tree is a slow, tedious trek. If you try to take shortcuts, you will find that detour sets you back. Better to take the slow road and do it the best way.

 

[music~maker]

We're talking deciduous here... The earlier you get those radial roots going, the better. Too often, the roots will become unbalanced, and you're fighting poor nebari for the rest of your life. When the tree is young, you can stop the big roots from becoming TOO big, and you can induce new smaller roots on those places that don't have any. Once the tree gets big, the difficulty increases by several orders of magnitude.

Building a quality deciduous tree is a slow, tedious trek. If you try to take shortcuts, you will find that detour sets you back. Better to take the slow road and do it the best way.

Yes, definitely good to check annually when developing the initial roots. No question that it's harder to fix later.

I have often found that after I have an established, well-balanced root system already in place, letting it run a couple years between re-pots helps develop some of the fine surface feeder roots into better nebari. This is especially useful if you have one of those trees that's missing nebari someplace you would like it.

During this time, I'll usually put some extra soil around the trunk and keep it moist to protect the nascent roots as they develop. It's definitely no shortcut - it can take 3-4 years to get roots where you want them this way, but they tend to be decent roots when you finally get them. Those also take multiple seasons to develop. I take a quick peak at least once a season to make sure nothing is going crazy and then I let it go again.

I grow lots of trees from nursery stock, and I find myself needing to do this to simultaneously develop the trunk and improve the nebari. But everything needs to be very much in balance before you take this approach, or like you said, the big things get too big pretty quickly. I find a similar principle applies to branches. When I'm in growing out mode, I just keep the strongest branches in check and everything develops much quicker, while still maintaining taper and ramification, than if I hard pruned everything back and re-grew it. Letting it grow mostly uninhibited except for rebalancing pruning gets pretty nice results fairly quickly, and there are some seasons where I don't prune much at all. I try and let the tree tell me what it wants that year.

I figure that the naturally dwarfed trees growing in isolated, rocky ground in the mountains don't get the benefit of annual root pruning, so I like to try and emulate that by setting up a nice, well-balanced root system and then letting it run for a while, and then see what I get from that. I basically like to set a scale and then hold them at that scale for multiple seasons. I do seem to consistently get gnarlier, more compact roots when I do this.

There's no right or wrong, really - just different paths, and different outcomes depending on the path you choose. The big key is making sure nothing ruins the scale unless you are intentionally scaling the tree up, or trying to create an interesting feature out of cutting something back.

 

[cmeg1]

Wrapped the air-layers.
Well,these layers are wrapped up.Some are quite tall,but I like it.Will see which ones turn out.
Excited to see how the roots look in Spring and then get them into akadama and grow boxes.
Going to layer about five more of these next season,they will have double the trunk thickness.
The whole process to make these is 18 months from when the cuttings were struck and then to now.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, definitely good to check annually when developing the initial roots. No question that it's harder to fix later.

I have often found that after I have an established, well-balanced root system already in place, letting it run a couple years between re-pots helps develop some of the fine surface feeder roots into better nebari. This is especially useful if you have one of those trees that's missing nebari someplace you would like it.

During this time, I'll usually put some extra soil around the trunk and keep it moist to protect the nascent roots as they develop. It's definitely no shortcut - it can take 3-4 years to get roots where you want them this way, but they tend to be decent roots when you finally get them. Those also take multiple seasons to develop. I take a quick peak at least once a season to make sure nothing is going crazy and then I let it go again.

I grow lots of trees from nursery stock, and I find myself needing to do this to simultaneously develop the trunk and improve the nebari. But everything needs to be very much in balance before you take this approach, or like you said, the big things get too big pretty quickly. I find a similar principle applies to branches. When I'm in growing out mode, I just keep the strongest branches in check and everything develops much quicker, while still maintaining taper and ramification, than if I hard pruned everything back and re-grew it. Letting it grow mostly uninhibited except for rebalancing pruning gets pretty nice results fairly quickly, and there are some seasons where I don't prune much at all. I try and let the tree tell me what it wants that year.

I figure that the naturally dwarfed trees growing in isolated, rocky ground in the mountains don't get the benefit of annual root pruning, so I like to try and emulate that by setting up a nice, well-balanced root system and then letting it run for a while, and then see what I get from that. I basically like to set a scale and then hold them at that scale for multiple seasons. I do seem to consistently get gnarlier, more compact roots when I do this.

There's no right or wrong, really - just different paths, and different outcomes depending on the path you choose. The big key is making sure nothing ruins the scale unless you are intentionally scaling the tree up, or trying to create an interesting feature out of cutting something back.

There's a difference between the nebari of the mountain yamadori conifers and the nebari of a zelkova. Zelkova simply do not exist the mountains. They are more level ground trees. You cannot expect to apply the same standards to both. It's like trying to compare the Mona Lisa to a Picasso cubist painting.

 

[music~maker]

There's a difference between the nebari of the mountain yamadori conifers and the nebari of a zelkova. Zelkova simply do not exist the mountains. They are more level ground trees. You cannot expect to apply the same standards to both. It's like trying to compare the Mona Lisa to a Picasso cubist painting.

You're exactly correct, of course. I wasn't trying to imply that you'd find zelkova in the mountains, or even that the roots are the same, only that constraining the roots of a deciduous tree and then letting it grow for a couple seasons before a repot can lead to an interesting result. Assuming, of course, that it's at an appropriate phase of development, and that the growth is balanced before you do it.

It's also somewhat species dependent. For example, I'm working on a kiyohime maple that I'm developing in a nursery pot. These grow pretty slowly, so they seem to benefit from a couple seasons of growth in between re-pots imho.

 

[JudyB]

should, repot deciduous trees every year.

I would caution you about this with Beech...

 

[Adair M]

I would caution you about this with Beech...

Probably true, Judy. I haven't had a beech in decades. And then it wads forest, which of course you don't repot every year. I was thinking maples and elms.

 

[Giga]

I would caution you about this with Beech...

Probably true, Judy. I haven't had a beech in decades. And then it wads forest, which of course you don't repot every year. I was thinking maples and elms.

I can't say I've thought about repotted deciduous every year-I do it every other year-and beech I'm going to wait at least 2 before a repot(only have one large beech atm). I think red maple and trident(and the like) can handle a repot each year and elms for sure since they grow like mad, but would you do the same to a J maple? I'm not sure I'd repot every year but it's interesting to hear about it!

 

[Adair M]

Gigs,

Your inquiry about potting frequency of Japanese Maple is worthy of its own thread. Let's try to keep this one focused on zelkova.