Yatsabusa styling and whorl advice.

[ACooke]

Hey all,

Picked up two yatsabusa's today with a plan of throwing them in a grow bed; ideally removing no, or as little foliage as possible.



Was fairly excited with what I'd managed to find; until I removed a little of the very weak/shaded out and dead foliage and there they were, perhaps unsurprisingly, the dreaded whorls.
I'm kicking myself a little as it was on my 'watch out for' list, I just simply couldn't dig deep enough at the time without pruning and they looked decent enough.

Anyway, I have a few questions which I'm hoping some of you can help me with, largely surrounding the question of - how big of an issue are the whorls going to be? Ideally, I wanted to throw them straight in the ground, removing as little foliage as possible but once I uncovered the whorls, I thought at that very least, I need to get rid of a branch or two from that intersection.

Following is the first tree, the foliage is lime-ish, some roots are exposed and the needles are a little smaller.

I thought the base looked decent, as did the taper (pre-whorl discovery). Plenty of options with where to go, the branch on the left could come down; but mainly i saw the branches to the right of the old cut giving me some good options to extend the trunk line upwards, or downwards and continue the taper.




The above shows roughly what I saw originally. I can't recall how much I'd removed by then but as we move down and I remove a little more foliage, the plot thickens.





And this next show probably shows the whorl in all it's tormenting glory, the best.




So that's the first tree, and the story of the second is largely the same.
I saw similar things to the first, possibility wise. Decent base, trunk, taper, movement and the option to work with the right hand side of the tree in where to go from there.



And here she is.





So now I've annoyed you all with a thousand photos - apologies.

Some questions.

1/ How big of an issue are the whorls and how detrimental are they to the outcome of the tree?
Should I and if I do remove some branches, leaving maybe one or two from the whorl, is it easy enough to out grow the whorl - essentially thicken the base enough in a reasonable period of time that the whorl is no longer an issue/the reverse taper is no longer?

2/ Well now i think about it, number 1 is my only real question. How best do I proceed? Give me your worst.

Also, should I cover those roots with some moss or soil?

Thanks in advance, everyone.
Also, feel free to give me any further advice or criticism you feel is relevant.

 

[Shibui]

Unfortunately, whorls go hand in hand with Yatsubusa. Their natural growth habit is lots of buds at every growing point. That's probably what keeps them compact but also creates the swellings if not pruned early. As most are probably grown as landscape trees the growers won't waste the time selecting shoots and we get what we get.
At least you don't have obvious grafts which is a bonus.

I've developed the 2 Yatusbusa I have here from the first branch. Chop the main trunk and grow again from what's left. It's not possible to see what options you have in the lower branches as you have focussed mainly on the problem above. Have a look and see what you can see, trying to ignore the upper trunk and imagine just the first 2 branches - one as a first branch, the other wired up as the new trunk.
Another option is to create some dead wood through half of the bulge to disguise it a little. That may allow you to use part of the upper section.

I would probably cover the roots with some more soil. Roots still grow when exposed provided the ends are in the soil but I suspect I get a better response when softer under soil roots a5re chopped at transplant than if hardened above soil roots have to be shortened.

 

[ACooke]

Thanks @Shibui .
Ah, damn, that sucks.

Ah well.

Out of interest - what would be the outcome (aside from a huge gaping scar) if you were to chop the hell out of the whorl with some Knob cutters. Is there a high probability everything beyond that dies? What about carving; do they typically take to carving a whirl sized chunk out mid trunk?

I presume the above is something you'd want to do later as growth at that junction would be hindered from there forward? Or would the trunk simply thicken 'around' the deadwood?

 

[Shibui]

Like most other trees. No problem carving out a chunk of trunk or chopping with knob cutters provided you leave enough bark connecting branches above with roots below.
Trunks continue to grow and thicken all through the tree's life. Rates of growth and thickening depends on the amount of leaves and growth above so carving or chopping some branches will slow growth a bit but it will still continue. That should not be too much concern as you already have reasonable sized trunks.
Eventually the trunk will grow right over any dead section but that could take many years while you are reducing growth through bonsai techniques.

 

[ACooke]

Excellent. Thanks @Shibui

Sorry, I'm going to annoy you with one last question.
So it's essentially an aesthetic question as to weather you (i) chop/carve and work with/beyond the whorl; or start again from before the whorl?

 

[Shibui]

I guess that's aesthetics. Neither is better per se. Just depends what you have to work with and what looks good with each different tree you work with.

Some photos that may show what I mean better than words.

The larger of the 2 Yatsubusa


Showing where the original trunk was chopped off leaving a short dead section as jin. The tree has been grown from the lowest 2 branches.

Look closer upper left and you may be able to pick out another similar chop where there was another whorl on the branch chosen as trunk.

I lost most of the trunk of the second Yatsubusa last summer but no big problem. I can repeat the procedure and develop a new trunk from the remaining branches.

For you, it is easier to see the chops and structure.
Note how much the trunk has thickened around the older dead wood in around 8 years of growth.

 

[ACooke]

Yeah that portrays what you are saying well, thanks!

Ok, i'm going to spend some time with it; rash decision rarely work out well for me ha ha.

 

[ACooke]

@Shibui would you suggest there’s much point in planting it in a grow box? I continually heard that yatsubusa isn’t really a dwarf but more-so just a prolific bud-er.

Now i’ve spend more time searching out specifically yatsubusa - which is a struggle - i can’t really find anything larger than shohin’s.

Can you thicken them much beyond a trunk suitable to that sized tree. I had in my head that there’d be no issue (given enough time) they’d be suitable for ‘kifu sho’ to ‘chu’ sized tree.

It’s becoming clear i should have spent more time on yatsubusa specifically than jbp in general.

Shohin it is, i guess haha.

 

[ACooke]

The trunks are both ~ >30mm for ref.

 

[Shibui]

I believe that Yatsubusa means many buds so yes, prolific bud er> It also seems that available energy shared between all those many buds means that each shoot is shorter than comparable standard JBP which means less lengthening each season.
If we left all the shoots to grow out I suspect that thickening could be comparable to standard species but when we remove most shoots before they mature that will slow thickening. There's no reason you couldn't make one a long term growth and development goal as a larger bonsai but, as you can see I've aimed specifically at shohin size with both of mine.

 

[ACooke]

I believe that Yatsubusa means many buds so yes, prolific bud er> It also seems that available energy shared between all those many buds means that each shoot is shorter than comparable standard JBP which means less lengthening each season.
If we left all the shoots to grow out I suspect that thickening could be comparable to standard species but when we remove most shoots before they mature that will slow thickening. There's no reason you couldn't make one a long term growth and development goal as a larger bonsai but, as you can see I've aimed specifically at shohin size with both of mine.

That makes a lot of sense how you’ve explained it.
Thanks!