why is it impossible to find part 2

[Corwyn13]

3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?

I thought it was a good exercise to try to come up with my own definitions here, especially as someone who would like to grow trees for money someday:
-If it's in a bonsai pot/ slab/ vacuum/ nice container of some kind and the horticultural techniques applied to it have resulted in an interesting/ pleasing AND refined shape, it's a bonsai
-Pre-bonsai has had some horticultural work applied to it with the goal of enhancing the aesthetic qualities that generally make for compelling bonsai; it may or may not be in a bonsai pot, I personally don't want to buy pre-bonsai in a bonsai pot
-Nursery stock describes a plant in which its aesthetic interest, in terms of bonsai applicability, was incidental to the horticultural techniques applied to it or the larger goals of the grower
-Mallsai are like pre-bonsai in that they have had horticultural techniques applied to them to achieve specific aesthetic goals, however they're generally done badly and lack both the refinement of a true bonsai and the potential of a pre-bonsai. They're aimed at beginners or people who don't really know what makes a proper bonsai. As some of the most accessible material though, I have had fun with several mallsai and learned a lot about propagation from them

As others have said, buying from your peers will give you the best value, tho there is a place for buying online sight-unseen (like Wigert's), especially in the beginning. I got about 7 trees when I started out: a bunch of nursery stock/ stuff from Wigert's ($8-$30) and the most expensive tree that I wouldn't be absolutely devastated by if I killed it being a dumbass ($85), all 5-year+ projects

so here is a question no one seems to be answering, Does your definition ESPECIALLY for bonsai and pre- Also include the defines rules ( im not sure if that is the right term) on primary, secondary brnaches defined apex etc
Or is it just hey it's been put in a nice container and shaped ( which is a bit vague a term IMHO) meet that?
what if I have a tree that is in a pretty bot, obviously has horticultural work BUT has no primary secondary branch or apex, Is it still a bonsai> a pre bonsai why is it different from a topiary that has also had techniques applied that rsult in uninteresting/pleasing and refined shape??

 

[coltranem]

Corwyn that is a great question but extremely hard to answer. Sort of like what makes art "art". Everyone will have a different answer. Right now for me it comes down to does the planting invoke the image of a mature tree. In most cases that includes some level of branch ramification. It is possible my answer might change with more experience.

 

[pandacular]

I think these terms are all used so differently by different people as to be almost useless. Really, they're only useful when selling something, to set expectations. Pre-bonsai in that context is a type of nursery stock, with any number of aspects left to the next owner.

I don't think people should sell their work short by calling a work in process tree a "pre-bonsai." To invoke the ancient wisdom, Bonsai = cool tree in pot, don't overthink it.

 

[dbonsaiw]

so here is a question no one seems to be answering, Does your definition ESPECIALLY for bonsai and pre- Also include the defines rules ( im not sure if that is the right term) on primary, secondary brnaches defined apex etc
Or is it just hey it's been put in a nice container and shaped ( which is a bit vague a term IMHO) meet that?
what if I have a tree that is in a pretty bot, obviously has horticultural work BUT has no primary secondary branch or apex, Is it still a bonsai> a pre bonsai why is it different from a topiary that has also had techniques applied that rsult in uninteresting/pleasing and refined shape??

Whether the tree is in a specific container is really not indicative of anything. A sapling in a bonsai pot is still not a bonsai. A bonsai will typically be planted in a small pot to keep the growth limited etc., but the pot doesn't change the stage of the tree. Of course, "bonsai" literally means tree in pot, but I think that those on BonsaiNut expect something more than a sapling in a pot to be considered a bonsai. If we are discussing pre-bonsai vs. bonsai, the distinction is that the bonsai is the "finished" form of the tree and the pre-bonsai comprises all the stages before that, from sapling to tree with taper and movement but still needing branch work. This still begs the question, as what I consider my "finished" bonsai may be more of good starting point for someone else and, therefore, a pre-bonsai to that person.

Ultimately, who cares what someone calls a specific tree? If we are interested in working with it, we will need to determine what we envision the future of the tree looks like. If it's basically good as is to you, it's a bonsai. Otherwise, a pre-bonsai.

 

[Cajunrider]

Whether the tree is in a specific container is really not indicative of anything. A sapling in a bonsai pot is still not a bonsai. A bonsai will typically be planted in a small pot to keep the growth limited etc., but the pot doesn't change the stage of the tree. Of course, "bonsai" literally means tree in pot, but I think that those on BonsaiNut expect something more than a sapling in a pot to be considered a bonsai. If we are discussing pre-bonsai vs. bonsai, the distinction is that the bonsai is the "finished" form of the tree and the pre-bonsai comprises all the stages before that, from sapling to tree with taper and movement but still needing branch work. This still begs the question, as what I consider my "finished" bonsai may be more of good starting point for someone else and, therefore, a pre-bonsai to that person.

Ultimately, who cares what someone calls a specific tree? If we are interested in working with it, we will need to determine what we envision the future of the tree looks like. If it's basically good as is to you, it's a bonsai. Otherwise, a pre-bonsai.

One of my friends recently lost his spouse of 42 years. I gave him a pre-bonsai BC in lieu of flowers for her memorial ceremonies. The BC has gone through 4 chops so the top is OK but the branches are far from finished. In my friend's eyes, it is a bonsai tree and I am not going to argue.
PS: I visit him often so I can teach him how to wire and shape the tree. He's planning to visit my house for some more hands-on experience.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Whether the tree is in a specific container is really not indicative of anything. A sapling in a bonsai pot is still not a bonsai. A bonsai will typically be planted in a small pot to keep the growth limited etc., but the pot doesn't change the stage of the tree. Of course, "bonsai" literally means tree in pot, but I think that those on BonsaiNut expect something more than a sapling in a pot to be considered a bonsai. If we are discussing pre-bonsai vs. bonsai, the distinction is that the bonsai is the "finished" form of the tree and the pre-bonsai comprises all the stages before that, from sapling to tree with taper and movement but still needing branch work. This still begs the question, as what I consider my "finished" bonsai may be more of good starting point for someone else and, therefore, a pre-bonsai to that person.

Ultimately, who cares what someone calls a specific tree? If we are interested in working with it, we will need to determine what we envision the future of the tree looks like. If it's basically good as is to you, it's a bonsai. Otherwise, a pre-bonsai.

Well put. It's like trying to draw a line between blue and purple. Blue and purple are still meaningful terms even though the line between them is undefined.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Bonsai has at least two definitions. One is the object itself....... the tree. The other definition deals with the art........which is the PROCESS. To me, if you take a tree and start the process (prune, repot, work the roots, etc) , you are already doing the process of bonsai.......a minimal start, to be sure, but certainly a part of the process.

 

[JEads]

I read both threads and decided to jump into this one.

I think of pre-bonsai as plant material that is on a trajectory to one day be bonsai. For me, there is some intentionality built into the creation and working of the material. There is root work done, trunk movement added early, some branch development and selection. It allows the next owner to step onto an escalator and continue the process forward and upward.

About wild pricing: I think that there are some vendors that take advantage of a surge in interest in bonsai and a lack of materials in order to sell products that are "overpriced" and under worked. That will always be the case when there is such a gap in supply and demand. This is capitalism working as intended. I do not fault anyone that is trying to own and run a small business in an age of Amazon, Temu, Home Depot or a slew of other huge retailers. Sometimes you have to go where the market goes. If the market is buying "s" curve Chinese elms in blue pots, that is sometimes what you produce and sell.

That being said, producing materials is extremely hard work and takes time. Time is money. Unlike money, time is not something we can make more of and marches on relentlessly. As other's have already said more eloquently: The longer you do bonsai, the more you tend to accept the trade off of money for time. The more time you spend with sticks in pots watering, weeding, fertilizing, protecting from heat and cold only to have some die over a hot weekend, the more that you are willing to pay for someone else to do suffer those consequences.

I would like to think that I am producing materials that are true pre-bonsai. I am not under the illusion that all of the trees that I sell will one day end up in a major show as a finished tree, but they "could". They are being set up for success. Proper work is being done at the proper time in order to allow the next owner to push the project forward and not have to go back to fix problems that could have been dealt with earlier by someone else.

Time will only tell!
John
Left Coast Bonsai

 

[dbonsaiw]

Maybe the question can be rephrased this way - if one has many thousands of dollars to burn on a bonsai and wanted to purchase a "finished" tree, where would one go to find this?

 

[MaciekA]

Maybe the question can be rephrased this way - if one has many thousands of dollars to burn on a bonsai and wanted to purchase a "finished" tree, where would one go to find this?

If I was asking this question, the answer would be to go to my teacher's gardens and buy some of the trees I've been working on for the last few years. Failing that, I would go to either a professional yamadori collector or a professional pre-bonsai grower like @JEads , where I know I could find material that, while maybe not "finished", is a "preferable route to finished" than other routes.