why is it impossible to find part 2

It is tricky.

The larch for ~600 is WAY overpriced for what you get. This is NOT an ancient tree with loads of character. It is a 15 year old small plant found somewhere along a forest edge, potted in fall and wired, and now ready for sale. IF this was pot-grown for 15 years, it is a different story already, but then the tree would have a very different level of development... 100-200E is really the max for such a tree.

Brings me to the point of.. When do you get into the 500+ range? Well, to me, it has to have real age, character. It needs a certain level of specialness.

The commercial nursery plant will be a thin, tall, 2-5 year old pant which is a decade away from reaching the bark that you see on the 600usd plant. Aging takes time.

Age + work done & uniqueness make the price.
Do not be blinded by seller trying to sell on the upside of the pricerange.
 
Around Xmas time you should be able to find Spruce Xmas trees with similar bones to the larch, that you could practice on, seeing that you say youre a newbie, those would be great to learn on. Can get those types of trees for fairly cheap all year around all over the world. Ryan neil has a few streams on how to select decent nursery material.

'waiting for the we dont get Christmas trees here comments':D
 
Last edited:
It's all over the board....
And the board is very large.

Sorce
 
One thing that is hard with bonsai is realizing the affect time will have. Even modest treed looks much better with the hand of time. This shimpaku was purchased as a 1 gallon can at NEBG in fall of 2018 for about $20. Unfortunately it would be 2-3x that now.

Here it is at its first Repot in May 2019 and then later in August of the same year.
20190505_132902.jpg20190813_192616.jpg

The first styling occurred in October of 2019.

20191012_123355.jpg

Here it is in 2020
20201010_152521.jpg


2021
20210730_165446.jpg

And last year (2022) for my club's annual fall show.

20221002_142725.jpg

And finally this week.

20230730_201320.jpg
It is never going to be a high end tree and there is still work to be done to improve its quality more. However this sort of shows what even a novice can do with time and modest material.
 
If you contribute to the work of horticulture, growth, development, taking actions on the tree and then the work of refinement, you will create an objectively pure, meaningful connection and relationship with a tree that is: a) entirely different from everything else that can be accomplished in bonsai and b) cannot be accomplished by any amount of money purchasing any degree of beautifully refined trees. The nature and the essence of bonsai lies in the work and creation of bonsai.

Keeping in mind that we join a collaborative partnership/relationship with the tree, the nature and essence of bonsai, then, cannot be purchased. What we contribute to the genesis of the tree (our part) comes from within.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: JoB
One thing that is hard with bonsai is realizing the affect time will have. Even modest treed looks much better with the hand of time. This shimpaku was purchased as a 1 gallon can at NEBG in fall of 2018 for about $20. Unfortunately it would be 2-3x that now.

Here it is at its first Repot in May 2019 and then later in August of the same year.
View attachment 500574View attachment 500575

The first styling occurred in October of 2019.

View attachment 500576

Here it is in 2020
View attachment 500581


2021
View attachment 500583

And last year (2022) for my club's annual fall show.

View attachment 500584

And finally this week.

View attachment 500591
It is never going to be a high end tree and there is still work to be done to improve its quality more. However this sort of shows what even a novice can do with time and modest material.
Nice transformation, good job!
 
I agree with @rockm , these are difficult questions and hard to answer in a straightforward way

In a nutshell though, if "vendors / retailers / sellers" are your pathway to getting bonsai trees or material, then you will be often scratching your head wondering why these prices are so unpredictable and why they are seemingly unrelated to quality, and why it is that people on forums and in clubs/shows nevertheless have awesome trees or seem to be swiming in them (strong hint: make contact with your locals or pass up these opportunities).

I think one reason for the price weirdness / lack of quality (in the USA) is that the bonsai-unaware outnumber the bonsai-aware by some astronomically crazy ratio (1000 to 1? maybe worse?). For vendors easily found through google, the bonsai-unaware account for a supermajority of revenue though. Ornamental tree sales is a brutally difficult business to be in, prone to bankruptcies or catastrophes (fires, floods, pathogens, storms) which are then followed by bankruptcies. I have been a witness to that and have bonsai pots covered with the splatter of melted greenhouse plastic and wildfire ash.

For the sellers who appear in google search results, it doesn't make much sense to grow high-quality material if the vast majority of sold material is dead in under 6 months and was an impulse purchase from a person who has no intention of running a long term horticulture ultramarathon. So you will see trees that are wildly overpriced and aren't satisfying trees, and oceans of mallsai-grade material.

Beginners understandably walk into all this, seeing brand names / logos / websites / easy shipping and maybe get the impression that bonsai in the US is a big, reliable market -- durable products with stable lifecycle expectations, reasonable care guides, well-worn trails of how to do things, established supply chains, known answers for nutrition, ample literature/media on techniques and so on -- something that would be normal customer expectations for any hobby, if it were only archery, bedroom music studios, competitive lego, reef tanks, drones, photography, etc.

Non-casual bonsai (i.e. the type of bonsai where trees stay alive for more than 1 winter/summer) in North America is not like any of those other hobbies. Except for a specific rare scenario ( very wealthy tree collectors who can fly my teachers to their gardens on a private jet ), the owner must become highly-literate in nearly the entire process: Transitioning root systems out of native/nursery soil and into bonsai-ready horticultural setups. Building root systems. Building trunks and canopies. Evolving trees to be ready for a bonsai pot, and evolving their canopies and root systems once they are in that pot. In addition to that, everyone who doesn't live in an area where answers for questions of supply, soil, nutrition and climate are served out on a platter (eg: Oregon, California, Japan, etc), needs to also become a bit of an amateur botanist and horticulturalist to find what works.

All of that to say that this:

In the long run, it was always going to be a non-negotiable fact that -- unless you own a helipad -- you were going to have to become pretty damn fluent in tree manipulation and growing within the first 3 or 4 years of entering the hobby. This means that everyone that stays in the hobby for more than a couple winters inevitably becomes their own key to ever-better material with each passing year because they know how to build trees. Stay active in the hobby and initially devote a larger share of your bonsai budget (money, time, effort) into education. The rest can go to very inexpensive pre-bonsai material (i.e. the kind sold by (but not only by) Left Coast Bonsai), or to landscape nursery material (world-class professionals raid landscape nurseries for material all the time!) or to native material you can (legally/ethically) collect from local lands. Dive into education before buying a ton of trees. Knowledge of techniques gained through a gradual laddering up from humble material through to more daring attempts will get you up to your eyeballs in good trees and promising material in just a couple years.

One more tidbit that doesn't really fit into the above: Some time after your appreciation sharpens for the sheer volume/breadth of technique applied over long time scales in growing trunks/nebari, I would recommend seeing some field grown material IN PERSON up close. I stared shitty grainy thumbnail-sized Telperion tree listings on their site going "WTF? $1200 for that simple thing????" a million times before finally seeing one of those beasts in person and realizing my mistake. A pine I can't even fit in my car and that has been field grown for 20 years just for bonsai is expensive for a damn good reason. My eyes weren't well-tuned to good material at the time. Consider this angle when looking at the listings of some reputably-good sellers and thinking to yourself "what am I paying for here?". This is true of even the smallest/youngest pre-bonsai material, where there is a difference between a raw tree-industry whip and a pine grown for genetics, nebari, and an initial bend in the trunk.
 
I agree with @rockm , these are difficult questions and hard to answer in a straightforward way

In a nutshell though, if "vendors / retailers / sellers" are your pathway to getting bonsai trees or material, then you will be often scratching your head wondering why these prices are so unpredictable and why they are seemingly unrelated to quality, and why it is that people on forums and in clubs/shows nevertheless have awesome trees or seem to be swiming in them (strong hint: make contact with your locals or pass up these opportunities).

I think one reason for the price weirdness / lack of quality (in the USA) is that the bonsai-unaware outnumber the bonsai-aware by some astronomically crazy ratio (1000 to 1? maybe worse?). For vendors easily found through google, the bonsai-unaware account for a supermajority of revenue though. Ornamental tree sales is a brutally difficult business to be in, prone to bankruptcies or catastrophes (fires, floods, pathogens, storms) which are then followed by bankruptcies. I have been a witness to that and have bonsai pots covered with the splatter of melted greenhouse plastic and wildfire ash.

For the sellers who appear in google search results, it doesn't make much sense to grow high-quality material if the vast majority of sold material is dead in under 6 months and was an impulse purchase from a person who has no intention of running a long term horticulture ultramarathon. So you will see trees that are wildly overpriced and aren't satisfying trees, and oceans of mallsai-grade material.

Beginners understandably walk into all this, seeing brand names / logos / websites / easy shipping and maybe get the impression that bonsai in the US is a big, reliable market -- durable products with stable lifecycle expectations, reasonable care guides, well-worn trails of how to do things, established supply chains, known answers for nutrition, ample literature/media on techniques and so on -- something that would be normal customer expectations for any hobby, if it were only archery, bedroom music studios, competitive lego, reef tanks, drones, photography, etc.

Non-casual bonsai (i.e. the type of bonsai where trees stay alive for more than 1 winter/summer) in North America is not like any of those other hobbies. Except for a specific rare scenario ( very wealthy tree collectors who can fly my teachers to their gardens on a private jet ), the owner must become highly-literate in nearly the entire process: Transitioning root systems out of native/nursery soil and into bonsai-ready horticultural setups. Building root systems. Building trunks and canopies. Evolving trees to be ready for a bonsai pot, and evolving their canopies and root systems once they are in that pot. In addition to that, everyone who doesn't live in an area where answers for questions of supply, soil, nutrition and climate are served out on a platter (eg: Oregon, California, Japan, etc), needs to also become a bit of an amateur botanist and horticulturalist to find what works.

All of that to say that this:

In the long run, it was always going to be a non-negotiable fact that -- unless you own a helipad -- you were going to have to become pretty damn fluent in tree manipulation and growing within the first 3 or 4 years of entering the hobby. This means that everyone that stays in the hobby for more than a couple winters inevitably becomes their own key to ever-better material with each passing year because they know how to build trees. Stay active in the hobby and initially devote a larger share of your bonsai budget (money, time, effort) into education. The rest can go to very inexpensive pre-bonsai material (i.e. the kind sold by (but not only by) Left Coast Bonsai), or to landscape nursery material (world-class professionals raid landscape nurseries for material all the time!) or to native material you can (legally/ethically) collect from local lands. Dive into education before buying a ton of trees. Knowledge of techniques gained through a gradual laddering up from humble material through to more daring attempts will get you up to your eyeballs in good trees and promising material in just a couple years.

One more tidbit that doesn't really fit into the above: Some time after your appreciation sharpens for the sheer volume/breadth of technique applied over long time scales in growing trunks/nebari, I would recommend seeing some field grown material IN PERSON up close. I stared shitty grainy thumbnail-sized Telperion tree listings on their site going "WTF? $1200 for that simple thing????" a million times before finally seeing one of those beasts in person and realizing my mistake. A pine I can't even fit in my car and that has been field grown for 20 years just for bonsai is expensive for a damn good reason. My eyes weren't well-tuned to good material at the time. Consider this angle when looking at the listings of some reputably-good sellers and thinking to yourself "what am I paying for here?". This is true of even the smallest/youngest pre-bonsai material, where there is a difference between a raw tree-industry whip and a pine grown for genetics, nebari, and an initial bend in the trunk.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything here, particularly the part about getting out and seeing trees IN PERSON. Online means nothing. Photos are deceptive. Some sellers as well. I wish I had the first photo Vito Megna sent to me of my oak. It was a digital scan (state of the art at the time) and grainy with no real detail. Thank God Vito was a great guy and a very VERY good collector and trusting him lead to a very good place with that tree.

Also, I second learning as much as you can as quickly as you can. That is critical. That's how I did it years ago pre-Internet. I read or checked out every book I could find on the subject. I was lucky to have the world-class bonsai museum 45 minutes up the road from me. I went often. That's also how I became addicted to bonsai pots (thanks Warren Hill), but that's another story.

To learn the quickest, Get out and work alongside an experience bonsai person. Ask at a club meeting if anyone needs help repotting, wiring, digging up trees. Get your hand dirty. I promise you will learn more in half an hour than 15 years online not only about the mechanics of repotting, but also what good trees look like.
 
Last edited:
So in the other thread several points were raised that I thought were worth separating and having a discussion about, namely:
1) what is a reasonable expectation for a pre-bonsai - in terms of size, style, age, training,
2) what is a reasonable ( or at least average price range one should expect to pay for one)
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?


as a relative newbie perhaps, I don't have a clear or reasonable understanding of these to things.
For vendors please understand that I do not wish to offend or bad mouth anyone I am simply using these as an example to learn and aid in the discussion.
So I was looking at Wigerts Bonsai which I found to be very reasonably prices and with good quality trees (based on pics only, and the assumption that they are representative of actual trees I would receive)
in terms of size, branching and the kind of pot they are planted in, for PRE bonsai.
vs say this example of what I would consider at best topiary and not seeing how this follows, conforms or helps in developing ANY recognized style of Bonsai I am aware of
for 3 times the price. https://brusselsbonsai.com/green-mound-juniper-complete-gift-dt4002gmjcg/

And while I understand that I am paying a large percentage of the price for expertise and time. can some one explain to me the justification for 10,000% price difference
between
and
what I see as a pre bonsai that received it's first wiring


Again, please accept that I am not trying to offend anyone or be a troll. I am, as a newbie, asking questions that seem legitimate and relevant.

on a side note, I also wonder about the integrity of businesses that do stuff like this (because it begs the question, if I look hard enough will I find a 3rd site where it might be $300?)
https://www.bonsaioutlet.com/bonsai/twin-trunk-american-larch-in-a-round-ceramic-drum-pot-10696/ vs
Brussel's has changed a lot in the last five years. You used to be able to buy mid range sharp's pygmy for $100 or so. But now it seems like they cater heavily towards either beginners who don't know anything and expensive specimen trees with little in between.

Wigert's and Evergreen Garden works are still my top 2. I have yet to be disappointed.
 
A larch on kaizen
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20230801_091637_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20230801_091637_Chrome.jpg
    125.1 KB · Views: 34
  • Screenshot_20230801_091658_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20230801_091658_Chrome.jpg
    168.7 KB · Views: 30
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?

I thought it was a good exercise to try to come up with my own definitions here, especially as someone who would like to grow trees for money someday:
-If it's in a bonsai pot/ slab/ vacuum/ nice container of some kind and the horticultural techniques applied to it have resulted in an interesting/ pleasing AND refined shape, it's a bonsai
-Pre-bonsai has had some horticultural work applied to it with the goal of enhancing the aesthetic qualities that generally make for compelling bonsai; it may or may not be in a bonsai pot, I personally don't want to buy pre-bonsai in a bonsai pot
-Nursery stock describes a plant in which its aesthetic interest, in terms of bonsai applicability, was incidental to the horticultural techniques applied to it or the larger goals of the grower
-Mallsai are like pre-bonsai in that they have had horticultural techniques applied to them to achieve specific aesthetic goals, however they're generally done badly and lack both the refinement of a true bonsai and the potential of a pre-bonsai. They're aimed at beginners or people who don't really know what makes a proper bonsai. As some of the most accessible material though, I have had fun with several mallsai and learned a lot about propagation from them

As others have said, buying from your peers will give you the best value, tho there is a place for buying online sight-unseen (like Wigert's), especially in the beginning. I got about 7 trees when I started out: a bunch of nursery stock/ stuff from Wigert's ($8-$30) and the most expensive tree that I wouldn't be absolutely devastated by if I killed it being a dumbass ($85), all 5-year+ projects
 
3) where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?

I thought it was a good exercise to try to come up with my own definitions here, especially as someone who would like to grow trees for money someday:
-If it's in a bonsai pot/ slab/ vacuum/ nice container of some kind and the horticultural techniques applied to it have resulted in an interesting/ pleasing AND refined shape, it's a bonsai
-Pre-bonsai has had some horticultural work applied to it with the goal of enhancing the aesthetic qualities that generally make for compelling bonsai; it may or may not be in a bonsai pot, I personally don't want to buy pre-bonsai in a bonsai pot
-Nursery stock describes a plant in which its aesthetic interest, in terms of bonsai applicability, was incidental to the horticultural techniques applied to it or the larger goals of the grower
-Mallsai are like pre-bonsai in that they have had horticultural techniques applied to them to achieve specific aesthetic goals, however they're generally done badly and lack both the refinement of a true bonsai and the potential of a pre-bonsai. They're aimed at beginners or people who don't really know what makes a proper bonsai. As some of the most accessible material though, I have had fun with several mallsai and learned a lot about propagation from them

As others have said, buying from your peers will give you the best value, tho there is a place for buying online sight-unseen (like Wigert's), especially in the beginning. I got about 7 trees when I started out: a bunch of nursery stock/ stuff from Wigert's ($8-$30) and the most expensive tree that I wouldn't be absolutely devastated by if I killed it being a dumbass ($85), all 5-year+ projects
1000002392.jpg
Here is a pre-bonsi that is correctly placed in a bonsai pot.

Placing a tree in a pot isn't about it saying "its finished", the root constraint plays an important part in dwarfing the tree. It also looks nice.
 
Brussel's has changed a lot in the last five years. You used to be able to buy mid range sharp's pygmy for $100 or so. But now it seems like they cater heavily towards either beginners who don't know anything and expensive specimen trees with little in between.

Wigert's and Evergreen Garden works are still my top 2. I have yet to be disappointed.

Curious to see if the trend continues

Seems like bonsai got a Covid bump (hi, it’s me) but I have to imagine many will wash out and demand will change once more…. That said, people are hurting financially right now and prices are still soaring, so maybe not.
 
where do you draw the line between - nursery stock (mall bonsai) and pre-bonsai and between pre-bonsai and Bonsai?
For me, nursery stock is anything purchased in a non-bonsai nursery. This is material intended for landscaping, typically comes in larger nursery pots and has zero bonsai work done to it. These trees need a serious repotting and initial root work, and likely need to be cut back and/or layered to obtain the starter material.

Pre-bonsai is anything that is not yet a "finished" bonsai. Note that there really is no such thing as a "finished" bonsai as they will continue to be worked for their entire lives. Pre-bonsai is a very, very wide range of material from seedlings/malsai to much more advanced material that may have good nebari and trunk taper/movement. For me, really anything short of a tree in a pot, with good nebari and trunk taper/movement, and at least the start of branching is pre-bonsai.

Bonsai is a tree in basically a finished form. The features of the tree will be enhanced and otherwise maintained, but the actual creation of the features is done.

IMHO, definitions really don't do this sorting process any justice. Part of the learning curve is recognizing what stage of development a specific tree is in terms of possible "final" products.
 
Some good tips in this video on what to look out for when you go to nursery. This guy reminds me of me, lets the worker know he plans on digging down into the soil to look for a nebari, this part is often overlooked. I see so many on here asking for stying advice without even looking at the nebari. If you want to find good material, you cant be afraid of getting your hands dirty! I usually bring a flannel to wipe off after.

The Shishi is pretty substantial but not cheap at $300. I'd probably pass and go to the next nursery too, my days of buying for the sake of buying ended a long time ago...

Where is the op based?
 
Last edited:
Brussel's has changed a lot in the last five years. You used to be able to buy mid range sharp's pygmy for $100 or so. But now it seems like they cater heavily towards either beginners who don't know anything and expensive specimen trees with little in between.

Wigert's and Evergreen Garden works are still my top 2. I have yet to be disappointed.
Brussels has likely changed because its market has grown. The place still has mid-level trees, but you have to ask to see them.

Their bread and butter is selling beginner trees through florists, big box stores and their own mail order. That business has skyrocketed during the pandemic--just like everyone got a puppy, they also bought a few million bonsai as well.
 
For me, nursery stock is anything purchased in a non-bonsai nursery. This is material intended for landscaping, typically comes in larger nursery pots and has zero bonsai work done to it. These trees need a serious repotting and initial root work, and likely need to be cut back and/or layered to obtain the starter material.

Pre-bonsai is anything that is not yet a "finished" bonsai. Note that there really is no such thing as a "finished" bonsai as they will continue to be worked for their entire lives. Pre-bonsai is a very, very wide range of material from seedlings/malsai to much more advanced material that may have good nebari and trunk taper/movement. For me, really anything short of a tree in a pot, with good nebari and trunk taper/movement, and at least the start of branching is pre-bonsai.

Bonsai is a tree in basically a finished form. The features of the tree will be enhanced and otherwise maintained, but the actual creation of the features is done.

IMHO, definitions really don't do this sorting process any justice. Part of the learning curve is recognizing what stage of development a specific tree is in terms of possible "final" products.
This is informative to me, thanks for this clarification.
 
For me, nursery stock is anything purchased in a non-bonsai nursery. This is material intended for landscaping, typically comes in larger nursery pots and has zero bonsai work done to it. These trees need a serious repotting and initial root work, and likely need to be cut back and/or layered to obtain the starter material.

Pre-bonsai is anything that is not yet a "finished" bonsai. Note that there really is no such thing as a "finished" bonsai as they will continue to be worked for their entire lives. Pre-bonsai is a very, very wide range of material from seedlings/malsai to much more advanced material that may have good nebari and trunk taper/movement. For me, really anything short of a tree in a pot, with good nebari and trunk taper/movement, and at least the start of branching is pre-bonsai.

Bonsai is a tree in basically a finished form. The features of the tree will be enhanced and otherwise maintained, but the actual creation of the features is done.

IMHO, definitions really don't do this sorting process any justice. Part of the learning curve is recognizing what stage of development a specific tree is in terms of possible "final" products.
For me the switch from seedling or nursery trees or collected trees to pre-bonsai is the structural change for shallow roots, for future trunk taper etc.
The switch from pre-bonsai to bonsai happens when we change from fast growth to develop trunk/nebari etc. to controlled growth for shaping, branching ramification. The controlled growth often happens when we moved from training pot, grow boxes etc.. to a bonsai pot. This usually also includes changes in substrate as well.
 
I am in the same camp as @Cajunrider when it comes to wording. Unfortunately for those of us who associate very specific material prep steps with the term "pre-bonsai", I think this bit of jargon will not settle easily into a stable definition as far as the greater community is concerned. A far more obvious interpretation of "not a bonsai yet" seems to be more prevalent than the meaning used by those who have had more time/experience with the bonsai supply chain or know field growers. This may ultimately account for some of the head-scratching that goes on with prices -- a raw pine whip from a forestry industry sale is very different from a Left Coast pine seedling, for example. If I had a magic wand, I would create a new term for what I think of (and field growers think of) when using the term pre-bonsai, because it is just too easy to interpret as "not a bonsai yet". Something that doesn't have a different more apparently-obvious surface-level meaning of the word.
 
Back
Top Bottom