Where to cut my 5 needle??

[Neli]

I got your point. As to the trunk pictures you posted, if they are five needle pine it is only because they have been grafted on to Black Pine trunks which these absolutely are. White Pines do not produce this deeply fissured bark. I am also deeply curious as to how any JWP Japanese White Pine can be made to grow in a tropical climate, which is what I understand Zambia to be. We have trouble with them in Michigan USA which is a temperate climate.

Vance,
I have 3 white pines, but you are right. They can not grow here. I am trying to do a cold room for them. But JBP grows. You are right also that all JWP grown in Japan are grafted on BP, but not all are grown. Some are yamadori.
Zambia is subtropical.
I have seen grafting changes the appearance of the graft when grown and it is some how influenced by the tree being grafted.
Never thought about it much though. I presumed that your WP are grafted too.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,
I have 3 white pines, but you are right. They can not grow here. I am trying to do a cold room for them. But JBP grows. You are right also that all JWP grown in Japan are grafted on BP, but not all are grown. Some are yamadori.
Zambia is subtropical.
I have seen grafting changes the appearance of the graft when grown and it is some how influenced by the tree being grafted.
Never thought about it much though. I presumed that your WP are grafted too.

Neli;------ that has been the point of this entire post. The White Pine shown here is not grafted it is grown on its own roots. I thought that was clear. The White Pines grown on BP roots have had all of that primary work done for you. In this case we are still talking about developing for another five to ten years before the trunk looks anything like the ones grafted onto from Japan. Grafting may make growing in Zambia possible but I'll wager it is not. I have had many years of experience with White Pine and very little of it has been good in my area. I have grown over 250 of them from seed and liners and as of now have only half a dozen left. I have sold quite a few of them but I have lost many more than I have sold. I have been told that this is the attrition rate for them grown from seed.

 

[Neli]

Neli;------ that has been the point of this entire post. The White Pine shown here is not grafted it is grown on its own roots. I thought that was clear. The White Pines grown on BP roots have had all of that primary work done for you. In this case we are still talking about developing for another five to ten years before the trunk looks anything like the ones grafted onto from Japan. Grafting may make growing in Zambia possible but I'll wager it is not. I have had many years of experience with White Pine and very little of it has been good in my area. I have grown over 250 of them from seed and liners and as of now have only half a dozen left. I have sold quite a few of them but I have lost many more than I have sold. I have been told that this is the attrition rate for them grown from seed.

I had a small dwarf white pine I bought in The UK, 3 years ago. It managed to grow all that time, until I started overdoing things. Well we can only learn from our mistakes.
But I would rather listen to people with experience and believe them that it will not grow here.
Have 3 little ones...all mame, two ROR and one yatsubusa. Giving them a last careful try, due to the fact that I am a hard headed woman, that think that with love and extra effort lots of things can be overcome.
Forgot to tell you the way I managed the white pine to survive all that time was by keeping it in constant shade.

 

[Vance Wood]

I had a small dwarf white pine I bought in The UK, 3 years ago. It managed to grow all that time, until I started overdoing things. Well we can only learn from our mistakes.
But I would rather listen to people with experience and believe them that it will not grow here.
Have 3 little ones...all mame, two ROR and one yatsubusa. Giving them a last careful try, due to the fact that I am a hard headed woman, that think that with love and extra effort lots of things can be overcome.
Forgot to tell you the way I managed the white pine to survive all that time was by keeping it in constant shade.

Keeping a White Pine in the shade is also a formula for disaster. My White Pine don't do well in full sun either but the literature says they need full sun. All of my Whites are grown from seed.

 

[Neli]

Keeping a White Pine in the shade is also a formula for disaster. My White Pine don't do well in full sun either but the literature says they need full sun. All of my Whites are grown from seed.

Trust me on this one...I am not talking full shade...nice dappled shade with extra humidity. I know white pine needs sun, but this is how I managed to keep mine alive for 3 years, until I decided that the soil was not good, repotted it out of season and put it in full sun.
Wired and trimmed it at the same time and the poor thing was gone. My lap top went for repairs and all the hard drive was formatted. I need to look maybe in some forum for a picture of it.
I am doing the same as the ones I have now.
This are the two ROR mame. I need to tie one of them again one root is separated from the stone.


This is another shohin JBP i have.

Another one:

I have also some brand new varieties of BP from Japan with short needles grafted on JBP. They dont need needle reduction from birth.
Let me see if I can find it
found another of my JBP, not a very nice one but working on it.

 

[Neli]

This is the new variety of short needles JBP, that was given to Oyakata to try, and I begged one from him. Very new and vary rare.

compared to the normal JBP needles at the same age.

One of my mame cork bark pine

another one

 

[Neli]

Vance,
I forgot to tell you, it is Oyakata also that advised me to keep all my pines in dappled shade in summer. They should get some morning and afternoon sun but not mid day sun.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,
I forgot to tell you, it is Oyakata also that advised me to keep all my pines in dappled shade in summer. They should get some morning and afternoon sun but not mid day sun.

This I agree with. Frankly I am surprised you are able to keep any kind of Pine alive in your latitude with any kind of care. What kind of winters do you have?

 

[Neli]

6 Degree C=43 F

 

[cascade]

Vance,
I forgot to tell you, it is Oyakata also that advised me to keep all my pines in dappled shade in summer. They should get some morning and afternoon sun but not mid day sun.

Here in (SW) Florida I cannot even think growing JWP. Even JBP will do fine but not as vigorous as up North. Kotobuki won't work. In my mind it is not so much the summer sun - yes, conifers can get sunburned here, we know- but the lack of real winter.
Neli, you have asked me before and I am still not convinced that white pines will work where you live. Once that they live past 3 to 4 years we will know. Three years is the max trees will grow in Florida that else need winter dormancy. And the third year is more like a hanging in there than a lush happy tree.

Merry Christmas and good luck!

-Dorothy

 

[Neli]

Here in (SW) Florida I cannot even think growing JWP. Even JBP will do fine but not as vigorous as up North. Kotobuki won't work. In my mind it is not so much the summer sun - yes, conifers can get sunburned here, we know- but the lack of real winter.
Neli, you have asked me before and I am still not convinced that white pines will work where you live. Once that they live past 3 to 4 years we will know. Three years is the max trees will grow in Florida that else need winter dormancy. And the third year is more like a hanging in there than a lush happy tree.

Merry Christmas and good luck!

-Dorothy

Darling, if you notice above in my statement I said they will not grow...but I am stuck with them for now. Will take them present to some friends in SA they have frost. I even said that I need to listen to people with experience...He hehe!
My kotobuki is grafted on JBP, so I have some hopes for it.
Merry Xmas Darling!

 

[cascade]

Kotobuki

..
My kotobuki is grafted on JBP, so I have some hopes for it.
..

Neli, they are all grafted on JBP stock. They usually don't do well past zone 7 or 8 the utmost.

Best,
Dorothy

 

[nathanbs]

Neli, they are all grafted on JBP stock. They usually don't do well past zone 7 or 8 the utmost.

Best,
Dorothy

it is absolutely the lack of a true winter dormancy that will weaken the trees and cause a slow death and not the warmth of summer. I know a guy here in So. California that does very well with JWP, however he brings them up to house in the mountains in Big Bear during the winter and this gives them their break.

 

[Neli]

Neli, they are all grafted on JBP stock. They usually don't do well past zone 7 or 8 the utmost.

Best,
Dorothy

Thanks Dorothy. It is one only...and there is nothing I can but try...against the odds, without much expectations now. I have it and can only give it away...or try...it cost me nothing. And this is a brand new variety so I can just try...

it is absolutely the lack of a true winter dormancy that will weaken the trees and cause a slow death and not the warmth of summer. I know a guy here in So. California that does very well with JWP, however he brings them up to house in the mountains in Big Bear during the winter and this gives them their break.

I might try and go the cold room way...that is all I can manage.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Dorothy. It is one only...and there is nothing I can but try...against the odds, without much expectations now. I have it and can only give it away...or try...it cost me nothing. And this is a brand new variety so I can just try...


I might try and go the cold room way...that is all I can manage.

I have heard of the cold room storage method before on more than one occasion but; I have never heard of anyone doing it successfully over any length of time.

This of course does not mean it can't be done but sometimes aggressive methods wind up providing their own downfall.

I seriously hope you are right and it can be done.

 

[daygan]

I have heard of the cold room storage method before on more than one occasion but; I have never heard of anyone doing it successfully over any length of time.

It's my understanding that the North Carolina Arboretum keeps their trees in a cold room that stays between 35 and 39 degrees for about five months every year. I'm not sure if they have Japanese Black Pine or Japanese White Pine in their collection, but Arthur Joura calls this situation a "perfect winter" and claims that "even evergreens such as pine and juniper can be kept [in this environment] without the need for light." It sounds to me like they're doing it successfully.

 

[Neli]

I have heard of the cold room storage method before on more than one occasion but; I have never heard of anyone doing it successfully over any length of time.

This of course does not mean it can't be done but sometimes aggressive methods wind up providing their own downfall.

I seriously hope you are right and it can be done.

Thanks! I can just try! Nothing to looze.

It's my understanding that the North Carolina Arboretum keeps their trees in a cold room that stays between 35 and 39 degrees for about five months every year. I'm not sure if they have Japanese Black Pine or Japanese White Pine in their collection, but Arthur Joura calls this situation a "perfect winter" and claims that "even evergreens such as pine and juniper can be kept [in this environment] without the need for light." It sounds to me like they're doing it successfully.

I want to use a deep freezer and open the lead and put glass on top. Slide the glass so that air can go in. That is why my trees are small. Good of you telling me that. I shall try it this winter. Have the deep freezer already ...old one..so no big deal.Temperature is adjustable...
It just might work. You never know.

 

[nathanbs]

I'm guessing lack of humidity is going to be a big problem in a freezer or refrigerator. Anybody have any solutions?

 

[Neli]

You can put stones in the bottom and water. Put the trees on top of that. The temperature is above freezing, and there is no wind inside. IMHO.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks! I can just try! Nothing to looze.


I want to use a deep freezer and open the lead and put glass on top. Slide the glass so that air can go in. That is why my trees are small. Good of you telling me that. I shall try it this winter. Have the deep freezer already ...old one..so no big deal.Temperature is adjustable...
It just might work. You never know.

Neli: If anyone's determination is up to the task it is yours. However I think it goes far deeper than just the temperature. There are issues of the wind and snow playing a part in sculpting the tree's future. It is uncertain how important those natural abuses are to the tree, but I feel they are important. I think you all know that there are some Pines whose cones will not open and release seeds unless they go through a fire.