Where to cut my 5 needle??

I agree with Vance. White pines are a totally different animal than JBP. Black pines will grow a second flush of growth if ma nipulated properly and back bud really well. With white pines back budding is a crap shoot if it back buds at all. You can let a top leader or sacrifice branch for thickening purposes. Then you cut it off. If you don't work on the branches you want to keep they will become pom poems because it's already been said that pines are apically dominant meaning they want to grow at the top and the ends of the branches. If back budding is hard to get to happen on a tree then you have no foliage close to the trunk where you need it.
And to disagree with Vance Wood about pines is just plain crazy. He is one of a few people on here that really know pine trees.
Merry Christmas

BUT, and I have a big but; I do not know White Pines as well as I know Two Needle Pines because until recently, growing conditions here made them very difficult. That's why I am hesitant to get too specific with them when it is someone else's tree. I have read all the literature out there about them but that's not the same thing.

The other variable with this tree is the fact it is grown on its own roots. In other words you are not starting out with this humongous pig-ass trunk with a bunch of White Pine branches grafted on it. With this tree you want a decent trunk you are going to have to grow it yourself. That means in order to get the trunk you have to allow the top to grow and if you do not control the top as it grows when you get the trunk you want the top of the tree wii be worthless unless it is done properly.
 
I think we should look again at the back-budding technique Neli was showing. It was indeed a white pine.
 
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I think we should look again at the back-budding technique Neli was showing. It was indeed a white pine.

Not the second picture, it was most definitely two needle Pine with a dose of Pine scale. I have looked and counted several times. The first picture is five needle, the second one with all the back buds down the naked branch is two needle. It looks very much like Mugo Pine. I have seen Mugo Pines back bud like this thousands of times, I have not seen White Pines back bud like this very often at all.
 
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Not the second picture, it was most definitely two needle Pine with a dose of Pine scale. I have looked and counted several times. The first picture is five needle, the second one with all the back buds down the naked branch is two needle. It looks very much like Mugo Pine. I have seen Mugo Pines back bud like this thousands of times, I have not seen White Pines back bud like this very often at all.

I'm with Vance. I'm certainly no expert, but by my count, there are two needles per bundle (in both pictures, I think).
 
My advice would be, plant it in a colander or pond basket to thicken the trunk.
It will develop roots and when the tips come in contact with the air the search another way.
This will give you a nice compact rootball.
When the trunk is not yet the desired thickness put the colander in a bigger one and let it grow.
If it is thick enough just take the colander out of the other and prune the roots off.

When it is growing thicker you can work on backbudding and build up a branch structure already.
One most important thing is that you let the top shoot as high as it can without pruning.
Only height will give you thickening and at the end you just cut it of.

This will take up to 5 years but you will see a good result.
It's also the way they create shohin mostly black pine from cuttings in Japan.
They create small developed shohin trees within 5 to 7 years this way.

As the dust settles I think it's super important to realize that without side branch sacrifices you will only be growing telephone poles(zero taper). I know you acknowledged the importance of both side and apical sacrifice but I just want to make sure everyone is clear on it.
 
As the dust settles I think it's super important to realize that without side branch sacrifices you will only be growing telephone poles(zero taper). I know you acknowledged the importance of both side and apical sacrifice but I just want to make sure everyone is clear on it.

Telephone poles it is, growing the way as has been recommended will give you telephone poles. You need to research the care and development of a Five Needle Pine. I can not stress how important that disclaimer is. Five Needle Pines have a totally different growth habit than Two-Needle-Pines. Most of the methods that have been forwarded to you are for Two-Needle-Pines and will not do what those methods are supposed to do with a five needle Pine, in fact those methods may kill the tree.

If you can find it; the Stone Lantern Pine Book will be a great help. It is basically a compilation of all the Pine articles ever written in Bonsai Today, a now out of publication Magizine. The publication International Bonsai has had numerous articles show casing the do's and don't's of five needle Pine cultivation.

What I remember from those articles: You can grow them in large pots as described but you much keep in mind that these trees do not back bud like two needle Pines. If you lose growth down low its gone without entering the wonderful world of grafting.

You can use escape branches to gain trunk girth but you are going to have to keep branches down low and those branches must have growth on them close into the trunk. Sometimes it is possible to design or style a tree down low but allow an upper branch to run away and pull the trunk out which is probably the best method with these guys.

Avoid side sacrifice branches because they leave you with some pretty heavy scaring, another issue with five needle Pines; they do not have the bark of a two needle Pine and scars like this will show for ever. Of course none of this is what you asked for in the beginning of this post. You asked where do you cut? Sadly until you have it in your mind what it is you plan on doing this is a difficult question to answer. I don't think I would recommend just cutting anywhere and hoping for the best just to see what happens.

Up front: the way to avoid "Telephone Pole Bonsai" is to use what is called clip and grow. You allow the apex to grow out and fatten the trunk a bit then you cut it back to a lower smaller branch. That branch is wired up to replace the terminal just removed and allowed to grow and function just like the terminal it replaced which will continue to fallen the trunk. This process is continued over and over until the base of the tree reaches the fatness you are looking for. It takes time to pull this off.
 
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What i have tried to explain I found on the blog bonsai tonight.
He uses it to develop a tree but with pond baskets it's the same method they use to thicken and make small trees with big trunks from cuttings and young trees.
As you can see and read he uses escape branches to thicken the trunk.

http://bonsaitonight.com/2013/12/20/refining-a-black-pine/
And the fact that this is a black pine doesn't matter it applies to multiple species including white pine.


Have a nice Christmas and new year every one!
 
I have a black pine that was grown in that exact way as the bonsai tonight post with a side branch and a leader left to grow. They cut the large side branch off first and left the leader to keep growing to help heal the wound. I'm just now this summer going to finish cutting off the tall leader. They grew it like this at telperion farms.
 
Not the second picture, it was most definitely two needle Pine with a dose of Pine scale. I have looked and counted several times. The first picture is five needle, the second one with all the back buds down the naked branch is two needle. It looks very much like Mugo Pine. I have seen Mugo Pines back bud like this thousands of times, I have not seen White Pines back bud like this very often at all.
I didn't realize there were any mugos in Japan. Honestly I wasn't counting needles, I just noticed the white striping along the needles and I knew it wasn't a black or red pine.
 
Yes there are mugo's in japan as seen in one of the video's by Lindsay fair.
They are rare in nature and as yamadori bonsai there so most of them are imported.
 
Thought I'd throw in a little photo essay of what I'm doing with a Scots Pine. This tree was originally marketed as a pom-pom landscape specimen tree. The Nebari was great and I could see I would use one of the lower branches as the new trunk-line and the rest of the original upper trunk would be used as a sacrifice portion to fatten up the lower trunk. I will soon begin to gradually remove the upper sacrifice in stages over several years so as to not cause too much trauma to the tree at once.

1st pic is the tree as purchased in 2009. Lower trunk about 3" Tree transplanted to wooden box in Summer 2010. (Good success of Summer repotting per Vance Wood re: Mugo and Scots Pines)

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Lower branch to be used as new trunk-line circled in red.
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Tree in wooden planter box in Feb. 2013.
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June 2013. Lower trunk base at about 4.5 5"
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Red arrow points to NEXT sacrifice branch which will be allowed to grow out to thicken the next trunk section (Yellow arrow). I'm keeping the actual bonsai portion of the tree in check with typical candling techniques used for Scots Pine. I've been getting good back-budding.
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What i have tried to explain I found on the blog bonsai tonight.
...
And the fact that this is a black pine doesn't matter it applies to multiple species including white pine.

I think you're right, Chris, it is applicable in terms of thickening the trunk and developing taper, as it seems Vance also confirmed here:

You can use escape branches to gain trunk girth but you are going to have to keep branches down low and those branches must have growth on them close into the trunk. Sometimes it is possible to design or style a tree down low but allow an upper branch to run away and pull the trunk out which is probably the best method with these guys.

... but the other issue that Vance noted is:

Avoid side sacrifice branches because they leave you with some pretty heavy scaring, another issue with five needle Pines; they do not have the bark of a two needle Pine and scars like this will show for ever.

Definitely something worth thinking twice about...

... and yes, none of this has answered typoolVT's question yet. My advice - along the same line as Vance's - figure out where you want to go with this tree, then you'll be able to better decide where to cut. My personal opinion regarding what you should do with this tree: that trunk is no thicker than your finger right now. It won't make an impressive bonsai at that size, so it's a bit too early to think about cutting. Put it in an environment where it will grow rapidly (planted in the ground or in an air pot of some kind) and increase in height and girth for a few years. Then, when you've got a 2 to 5 inch trunk, you can start thinking about where to cut it.
 
I certainly do not wish to cause a controversy but to my old eyes the pictures of the tree you posted as examples of back budding are from a two needle Pine. The subject of this post is a five needle Pine. I apologize in advance, if I am wrong, but when it comes to Pines response to pruning and pinching are worlds apart.

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Not the second picture, it was most definitely two needle Pine with a dose of Pine scale. I have looked and counted several times. The first picture is five needle, the second one with all the back buds down the naked branch is two needle. It looks very much like Mugo Pine. I have seen Mugo Pines back bud like this thousands of times, I have not seen White Pines back bud like this very often at all.
Look nicely at the pictures:
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All pictures are from the same tree.
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count the needles between my fingers. That is the same branch.
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The same branch.
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I see that now, Neli. Thanks for the close-up of the 5-needle pine!
 
Vance Darling,
Trust me I will never win a urination contest.
There is a joke that says that a constable urinates at 90 degree, captain at 45 and a general in his shoes.
But I think being a woman I can only manage the shoes.
I was trying to make a point here. Some are black pine and some white, but the truth is they all look the same to me...and you are right, they are old bonsai trees.
 
Vance Darling,
Trust me I will never win a urination contest.
There is a joke that says that a constable urinates at 90 degree, captain at 45 and a general in his shoes.
But I think being a woman I can only manage the shoes.
I was trying to make a point here. Some are black pine and some white, but the truth is they all look the same to me...and you are right, they are old bonsai trees.

I got your point. As to the trunk pictures you posted, if they are five needle pine it is only because they have been grafted on to Black Pine trunks which these absolutely are. White Pines do not produce this deeply fissured bark. I am also deeply curious as to how any JWP Japanese White Pine can be made to grow in a tropical climate, which is what I understand Zambia to be. We have trouble with them in Michigan USA which is a temperate climate.
 
VANCE, I live in Maryland and even though we get a good dormant period, it gets humid in the heat of the summer and my white pines struggle with it, I can't imagine them surviveing in that part of the world, not to mention no dormancy weather.
 
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