What would you do with these two kishu shimpaku?

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I got these two prebonsai Kishu Shimpaku from Chris Kirk at Telperion Farms last May. I'd be interested to hear what direction you'd go with them in terms of how to handle the "Y" trunks and where to try to fill out the branch structure. Thanks for your suggestions. The photos below show each tree from 4 different angles.

Tree #1 - Straight and Slanted
Leaning right
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Leaning back
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Leaning left
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Leaning forward
HMHAB5C7Dw0IIOgmc7PMfLzEGQCPpwOpt36sYWhzswqV_eKTauDrmaMridvtBFX1KdLCnsaE65ROmdg957JmiMzluR0OSuYsAIIs-5Hlk4gli_p3SUS487d0-YVjUpjfFkvlx9rokRA73DbTQOB0OTUAXPoBwf5_SFbX5lsnrhF_IZq5S0NW-K6HO8hMMoCuJ72Yyz0WE6ZaS7h8CTrmkkQ6E7XkP-Nd4RdrOI69NNcAkMzAxFK9Aq6Ew8m1niIXENE8Ap4vo2l9FW1hGTH3Fj11oxwrjYdR_XN9kcUWvZyOtNCuttgMhZBFiuK1TKES1f9J1Z-FnXRPuqbfwZIc9n_TMWlSMHpYYeEKlxNrANG9lOgld1iy8OvNNl4lldyXRmE1mBvOFCOncvG_F4BJmoELtKAApwFqNXzV33vojuboovFq_y722sfK3pldN4CVmUmnWKVMmq5qfgeKazWQOExtsOwfRPvGuAypijP0ky8OeW8WqoQhkPWoYPbJed_S5Wt_7TL3tIdlRPstiYNCcekocK8oxIFUyxKlFP3w9ZhuddaPdM8kwgs9TBncXqoTEuSA=w1759-h989-no


Tree #2 - One Bendy Trunk
Leaning back
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Leaning right
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Leaning forward
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Leaning left
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#1- leaning left is
Gives you a clean trunk line with what seems to have the best movement. Wire growth down, bring around from the front perhaps on the lower section if it will make it, if not don't worry you can always graft later... Shorten it a bit and start a Shari down the trunk, spiraling a bit to add interest and create the illusion of movement in the straight sections of trunk.

#2- leaning forward or left...
On this tree no matter what you do, remove the large straight trunk. Make a minute of it and any low branches, get a tangled little ball of twiggy deadwood right there where the other trunk wiggles off, but that interesting wiggle is what you want to keep and build your tree around.

Rule of thumb on most any tree- leaning back is NOT usually the right answer... Think of how we look at trees in nature- from below! This gives the illusion of more dramatic taper from bottom to top because of perspective and the same optical "illusions" also make the tree feel as though it is leaning towards you. Work with that in mind when looking at a tree and thinking to yourself "where do I want to go here".... The "rules" people speak of are not rules, they are design principals disguised as rules. Sometimes understanding the why better helps us understand the need to adapt a technique or implement something we have heard before But sort of ignored or one of those things that just never gelled or seemed important.

We are not really styling Bonsai to look exactly like trees actually look in nature, we are making a stylized artistic rendering of what trees look like to us, right? so, what is exaggerated on trees you see? What do you find as the most interesting potential focal point of these trees, what do you like about them? We could all take these trees and style them and get something different, you should do what you like to them, and as people for ideas on refinement once you have laid out your base...

Good luck man, looks like both have potential!
 
Thanks Eric, I appreciate your explanation of how you think about making styling decisions.

I like #1 leaning left the best, but wasn't sure a) if it mattered the top of the tree curves toward the viewer or b) if in that view I'd still keep the back branch. As you can see from alternate views, it is fairly Y shaped.

For #2, I also thought about cutting the large straight trunk. The wiggle on the other trunk is pretty compressed, and that seems to lead toward a very stubby tree - at least as far as I can imagine it. I'm just not sure where I'd go from the wiggle. But I agree the straight one has to go.
 
Thanks Eric, I appreciate your explanation of how you think about making styling decisions.

I like #1 leaning left the best, but wasn't sure a) if it mattered the top of the tree curves toward the viewer or b) if in that view I'd still keep the back branch. As you can see from alternate views, it is fairly Y shaped.

For #2, I also thought about cutting the large straight trunk. The wiggle on the other trunk is pretty compressed, and that seems to lead toward a very stubby tree - at least as far as I can imagine it. I'm just not sure where I'd go from the wiggle. But I agree the straight one has to go.
Yeah generally leaning towards the viewer is a good thing... Hard to say for sure if the branch should be removed, but probably it should... Someone here used to toss around the quote something to the effect of "every tree deserves some deadwood"... Especially true of Junipers!

Hard to tell you for sure where to go from "the wiggle", but a more compact tree is what you should go for on that one IMO. It looks like there is a branch just above the wiggle that could be a good new trunk extension, leading to a slanting style or perhaps even a semi cascade with an angle change, a little bending and some growth... But #2 is the better tree IMO. Not by a wide margin, just a little more interest to it...

Sorry the rest of you ya cannot see the trees, I have no clue why I can. I am viewing this on my iPad, don't know if that makes a difference... I suppose I could save them all and repost them but that just seems silly... Today two of the images are not working for me either all of a sudden... Here are some screenshots of the two images I liked best of the two trees... Maybe these will be visible.. Love yo get some more opinions @ColinFraser @M. Frary @Jeremy @Cadillactaste lemme know if you see them now!
1
image.png
2
image.png
 
Yes thanks @Eric Group I can see them now. I too am on an iPad Air...and can't view them. But...maybe I need to do an update. I rarely ever keep up on those...and have it turned off to only manually do updates. But that others also can't see them...is puzzling. You were the "chosen one" no doubt. Since you offered up solid information in the direction you seen fit. Kudos to that...well explained as well.
 
Sorry folks, I am using "Google Photos" to host these and it apparently doesn't like all browsers or devices or something. Will remedy shortly.
 
Okay, trying this again. The forum software wouldn't let me edit my original post for some reason, so this will have to do.

Tree #1
Tree 1 - Leaning Left.jpgTree 1 - Leaning Forward.jpg Tree 1 - Leaning Right.jpgTree 1 - Leaning Back.jpg
 
And Tree #2
Tree 2 - Leaning Left.jpg Tree 2 - Leaning Forward.jpg Tree 2 - Leaning Right.jpg Tree 2 - Leaning Back.jpg
 
Here are a few more trunk shots for Tree #2
20160331_183348.jpg 20160331_183359.jpg 20160331_183411.jpg 20160331_183423.jpg
 

There is not really a bad angle for this one.... Great movement! So, what caused that trunk to move like that? What force of nature? Would it not have exerted a similar damage to any other trunks in the same area? Of course it would! That is why the straight trunk next to it feels out of place and needs to be removed.. Jin it out, cut off part and carve the rest... This tree is one I would be excited about if it was mine!
 
I'm excited about tree #2 as well. Unfortunately between the two (so far, at least) if has been a less vigorous grower. Hopefully that will change this season.

So would you suggest I cut the straight trunk off immediately? How much stump sounds right? I was thinking maybe 2 inches, which I would peel and could be carved down at a later time. Alternately I was thinking to cut it nearly flush and carve out a cool wound.
 
I think flush eventually,
But leave an inch or so at first.

That IS a nice piece!

Doesn't look like much foliage on that trunk? I'd cut it now.
Put that energy into the other.

Sorce
 
I'm excited about tree #2 as well. Unfortunately between the two (so far, at least) if has been a less vigorous grower. Hopefully that will change this season.

So would you suggest I cut the straight trunk off immediately? How much stump sounds right? I was thinking maybe 2 inches, which I would peel and could be carved down at a later time. Alternately I was thinking to cut it nearly flush and carve out a cool wound.
When making a deadwood feature, I try to leave more than I think I need... You can always shorten it later, but you cannot put it back on!

I do not recommend cutting it flush personally. on juniper it would never heal over well and I like a dead branch sticking out at the start of a Shari... Tells a better story IMO.
 
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