What to do with Scots budding?

[Punky]

Ok. For

It's actually the opposite.

We cut a "quarter inch" into old growth following the Vance Mugo method.
And leave a "quarter inch" of new growth on JBP.

That's the half inch, which is only different as it is.

The difference is, with JBP we aren't stimulating new growth as much as we are limiting the distance from where the second flush can grow.

With Single flush pines, we ARE trying to stimulate backbudding, which is why we cut back into old wood. For a stronger response.

Sorce

OK. I don’t know the Mugo methods, but they do seem to differ very much from treatment you would give to white pines and many other pines (especially long needle). Because the reasons for each of those actions are different it’s important to make those differences clear regardless whether you call it decandling or not.

I wouldn’t normally care about vocabulary, however, using unique vocabulary for a particular strategy is one way to make the distinction clear. I think this is why even pros still call it “decandling” when technically that term is inaccurate, but it has such a strong association with the very particular multi-flush strategy.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wow, I can't believe that I seem to have missed this posting. There are a lot of things I disagree with in the replys and suggestionsin this thread. I suspect that the confusion is the product of a lack of understanding between terms. Let's look at the terms and the elements involved. Buds: This is kind of universally understood to be the little round or pointy looking things that seem to appear at the ends of the branches and along the length of a branch in sundry locations. These are the elements that start to enlarge and swell in the Spring heralding the beging of growth in the beginning of the year. Candles: These are the asparagus looking things the buds develop in to that have not yet produced needles. Shoots: These are the beginnings of new branches that are starting to show the emergence of new needles along the previous asparagus looking candles and could be argued as being candles still because they are not fully shoots yet. Once the shoot is fully a shoot it will have fully formed needles along its length and a group of new buds at the very end of the shoot numbering from on to seven depending on the tree.
I am going to let this stop for now to see the reactions and explanations others may want to add or discus/argue before going on to how we deal with these elements and what happens when they are cut, removed, or pinched out with single flush two-needle Pines.

Let me say, it is crucial that any tree this is done to must be healthy and well fertilized before this takes place. Removal of any growing tip is done with the intention of promoting new buds and subsequent new growth. Think about this parody: If you have a faucet and a hose attached the amount of water will be limited by how open you have turned the spigot and the ambient water pressure. However; if you attach a splitter and another hose you will find the business ends of the two hoses will only produce half the water output (roughly). If you were to measure the amount of water of the two hoses together you will find the total output to be about the same as the output of the one hose by itself.

 

[Punky]

Sorce has a post in almost every Pine thread implying that all pines are treated the same and therefore you might as well call it all decandling. It is misleading to imply all pines are treated the same.

Yes, ramification and balance are generally the goals, but the specific tactics vary significantly, especially when including long needle pines. Timing signals vary. Pinching varies. Cut location varies. Needle plucking varies. Plant response varies.

 

[M. Frary]

Wow, I can't believe that I seem to have missed this posting. There are a lot of things I disagree with in the replys and suggestionsin this thread. I suspect that the confusion is the product of a lack of understanding between terms. Let's look at the terms and the elements involved. Buds: This is kind of universally understood to be the little round or pointy looking things that seem to appear at the ends of the branches and along the length of a branch in sundry locations. These are the elements that start to enlarge and swell in the Spring heralding the beging of growth in the beginning of the year. Candles: These are the asparagus looking things the buds develop in to that have not yet produced needles. Shoots: These are the beginnings of new branches that are starting to show the emergence of new needles along the previous asparagus looking candles and could be argued as being candles still because they are not fully shoots yet. Once the shoot is fully a shoot it will have fully formed needles along its length and a group of new buds at the very end of the shoot numbering from on to seven depending on the tree.
I am going to let this stop for now to see the reactions and explanations others may want to add or discus/argue before going on to how we deal with these elements and what happens when they are cut, removed, or pinched out with single flush two-needle Pines.

Let me say, it is crucial that any tree this is done to must be healthy and well fertilized before this takes place. Removal of any growing tip is done with the intention of promoting new buds and subsequent new growth. Think about this parody: If you have a faucet and a hose attached the amount of water will be limited by how open you have turned the spigot and the ambient water pressure. However; if you attach a splitter and another hose you will find the business ends of the two hoses will only produce half the water output (roughly). If you were to measure the amount of water of the two hoses together you will find the total output to be about the same as the output of the one hose by itself.

This right here explains it all.
Never cut the candles off of pines.
When they say decandling it actually means to cut off growing shoots
Even on JBP.
Them guys have muddied up the waters by using wrong terminology for shoots by calling them candles.
What Vance explained is the right terminology.
And like I mentioned there is no need to cut anything off until after its grown.

 

[crust]

Good Lord

 

[Punky]

So I would like to understand this de-candling subject...I have Lodgepole and Ponderose pines, that I think are single flush pines. How does one ramify and control growth without de-candling? Help appreciated. Peter

Lodgepole can be pinched in the spring because their short needles will not elongate. I suggest watching the Mirai videos covering them to cover the nuances of timing and deciding which buds to pinch, and how to pinch them.

Ponderosa, on the other hand should only be cut when their needles have hardened and this doesn’t happen until Sept. or Oct. when the sheath at the base of the needles dries and falls off easily. Again, I suggest watching the Mirai videos.

I haven’t worked much with either species. I have one of each but they are recent acquisitions and I haven’t tested the methods, but these are the methods prescribed by at least one professional.

 

[crust]

I think of it sequentially, therefore, there is a little blurring as a said bud moves through the progression and whether it is manipulated: Bud (there are different kinds of buds), candle (there are different stages of development of candles), shoot( there are different stages of development of shoots) Branches( and differences here as well).

 

[crust]

I also have a Scots that I think needs attention. It's pretty heavily ramified already and moving into refinement. I am not overly focused on back budding. Mine has clusters of small buds at the ends of most of the branches, they are singularly at the branch tip and also stepped back in 1/8" increments, many have 4 or 6 buds, some more, a few only 2. Scots really get buddy. If I leave this it will essentially double in size, green-wise, and become very bushy and will block out interior light and become super-tip vigorous, this has weakened interior branches in the past so I will thin the buds before spring. Ideally, I should have thinned them in fall but I did not so I will this winter. What do you think about this approuch?

 

[M. Frary]

, I should have thinned them in fall but I did not so I will this winter. What do you think about this approuch

Why not?
I've trimmed many a pine in the dead of winter doing line clearance. Those trees aren't affected at all.
But why not trim it in the spring before the thing starts growing for the year.

 

[Vance Wood]

I also have a Scots that I think needs attention. It's pretty heavily ramified already and moving into refinement. I am not overly focused on back budding. Mine has clusters of small buds at the ends of most of the branches, they are singularly at the branch tip and also stepped back in 1/8" increments, many have 4 or 6 buds, some more, a few only 2. Scots really get buddy. If I leave this it will essentially double in size, green-wise, and become very bushy and will block out interior light and become super-tip vigorous, this has weakened interior branches in the past so I will thin the buds before spring. Ideally, I should have thinned them in fall but I did not so I will this winter. What do you think about this approuch?

Come on give me a break. If you don't" need the back budding" does not mean you let the tree grow wild until you do. Think about that one; if the tree all of a sudden needs back budding it means it has grown out of bounds from the design you had set for it. The idea is to keep the tree growing along the path you want which also means you can remove buds if the need presents itself, usually the bigger buds, leaving two only of the smaller ones. This way you maintain the direction of your tree and you are renewing the new growth without destroying the design.

 

[sorce]

Ideally, I should have thinned them in fall but I did not so I will this winter

I don't think this weakens the tree as much as.....

You can also break scots candles in half to help balance out the growth. Just wait until they're well extended, but before the needles emerge. That way the tree still gets the benefits from the candle/bud extension, you can balance out the growth but not remove all of that year's growth and weaken the tree.

Due to my "buds are merely potential" theory.

Always prevent.

That's my rule.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Sorce has a post in almost every Pine thread implying that all pines are treated the same and therefore you might as well call it all decandling. It is misleading to imply all pines are treated the same.

I may have a post in a thread, but it surely doesn't imply treating all pines the same.

I would never argue JBP techniques, that's clearly ridiculous.

I don't treat my mugo like others treat mugo, or JbP.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

@M. Frary this whole...long needle short needle pine thing....is now getting to me like elongating species got to you!

Sounds like we're trying to sell monthly subscriptions !

You think one of these students could actually describe the difference?
Or is the wonder part of the sales pitch!



Sorce

 

[Wilson]

@M. Frary this whole...long needle short needle pine thing....is now getting to me like elongating species got to you!

Sounds like we're trying to sell monthly subscriptions !

You think one of these students could actually describe the difference?
Or is the wonder part of the sales pitch!



Sorce

I just signed up for my free trial week with Mirai, and I am quite impressed with the quality instruction. I find Ryan has done a great job documenting all the different types of seasonal work, and has it organized so you can search by tree type, or season. Pretty cool resource.

 

[sorce]

I just signed up for my free trial week with Mirai, and I am quite impressed with the quality instruction. I find Ryan has done a great job documenting all the different types of seasonal work, and has it organized so you can search by tree type, or season. Pretty cool resource.

Thanks!

I'm just fooling. Noe I know how Mike felt about that elongating thing before.

What, besides needle length, is different in long or short needle one flush pines?
And is the determination oNLY to make shorter the long needle pines?
Because using long needle pine techniques on short needle pines will yield needles that are too short?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Speaking of short needles.....

@Punky I think you may be thinking of these types of "arguments" I have....

Like this of decandling JBP.

B) the timing is primarily based how much time is left in the growing season before the tree will go dormant.

True Via semantics, since "primarily" is used, but the real reason for the timing is to control needle/candle length.

The problem is, like almost all my other "arguments", that this is a half assed approach.

Basically, we're cutting shohin and 4man trees to have the same size candles and needles if cut at 100 days before frost.

100 days before frost is merely a guideline.

Lest 20 different sized trees all have the same size candle/needle. Not very realistic in a show.

I'm looking for a more subtle nuance.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

@M. Frary this whole...long needle short needle pine thing....is now getting to me like elongating species got to you!

Sounds like we're trying to sell monthly subscriptions !

You think one of these students could actually describe the difference?
Or is the wonder part of the sales pitch!



Sorce

Long needled pines and short needles pines.
Sounds to me like one is great for bonsai
Like Scots and mugo.
The other is just novelty.
People eat up this Mirai crap like it's skittles without ever thinking about what is really going on..
Someone trying to pioneer something that doesn't need it.

 

[Punky]

There is no mystery to short vs long:

Short Needle means that the needles are short enough that you can pinch new growth and the needles will not extend larger than appropriate for the tree. P. mugo, sylvestris, contorta, etc.

Long needle includes most white pines, ponderosa, etc. Long needle are the most difficult because you are limited to certain times of year to control needle length. It can make ramification difficult and often the needles still remain relatively long. Many people avoid long needle for good reason, but ponderosa do make amazing large trees when done right. Obviously white pine have their appeal.

If you are uncertain about the category for your pine you can play it safe and treat it like a short needle. If it responds with very long needles, you have a long needle. If it responds with a second flush, you have a multi-flush. If it responds with needles that remain short you have a short needle.

Ryan has “teased” about a fourth pine category based on Pinus halepensis, Aleppo pine. It sounds like it will be species specific care like his treatment of Sequoia sempervirens. I have one of the terrible little Christmas trees so I look forward to that video.

I have strongly mixed feelings about Ryan Neal. I often find him terribly annoying, dogmatic, and he clearly has a huge ego. I also think he’s in this for the right reasons, even if that does include making a living doing something he loves. People talk about his knowledge, but the most important part is watching the technique of a professional at work (with closeups of his hand work), the entertainment, and there are hundreds of hours of videos available for not much more than I pay for Hulu. The videos with guest professionals working on trees are amazing, and also make it clear how hard it is to do what Ryan does: working a tree at a high level while staying out of the camera’s view and engaging verbally, to include answering live questions. Ryan Neal is like a highly caffeinated Bob Ross.

 

[Punky]

What, besides needle length, is different in long or short needle one flush pines?
And is the determination oNLY to make shorter the long needle pines?
Because using long needle pine techniques on short needle pines will yield needles that are too short?

Sorce

Basically, you can be more aggressive with short needles: Ryan recommends pinching short needles, but there are other approaches.

Treat a short needle as a long needle: ramification takes much longer than necessary.

Threat a long needle as a short needle: your needles will be waaayyyyy toooo looonngg.

 

[leatherback]

What, besides needle length, is different in long or short needle one flush pines?

Ehm.. The time of year you look at them?
The amount of water they have had?
Fertilizer status?

I bet that is it. Am I right? Fertilizer status?

Sorry, maybe I ave just never seen short needled pines (Or long needled pines for that matter). I do not know what species would be short, which would be long, and where the boundary is. To me, all pines have long needles, and firs have short needles.