What to do with Scots budding?

[Mike Corazzi]

Here's a couple pix of the old Scots pine I've had my travails with.
It's been through hell and back and putting it in the Anderson flat 2 years ago was the best thing it's gotten.
It was decandled way too harshly last year but this year it is budding profusely.

Now.... should those buds be thinned now or should I wait to see how they do as candles and then decide?

The needles you see are probably ALL a couple years old as like I said, this past year was the "recovery" year.

?????

 

[M. Frary]

I've been letting all of the buds on my best Scots grow.
Then cut off the ones I dont need in late summer.
It doesn't get a bulge if you let them go one year.
And the tree thinks it's putting out maximum foliage so the needles are getting shorter.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would not worry about too many buds. Follow Mike Frary's lead.

You could go through and thin branches to two at each node, but I would leave the buds alone. Especially if you are trying to compact growth, reduce needle length and get shorter internodes. Leave all the buds. Thin shoots or branches the following autumn.

 

[Ryceman3]

I think @M. Frary has some good logic to his method so see no reason not to follow that if you are looking for direction, but this quote from your post has me wondering...

It was decandled way too harshly last year but this year it is budding profusely.

Now.... should those buds be thinned now or should I wait to see how they do as candles and then decide?

Scots pine are a single flush species and as such aren’t decandled. That is a technique reserved for multi flush pines like JBP and JRP. Maybe consider altering how you handle it? You might get away with decandling a single flush pine once, but I wouldn’t rely on that technique as your standard for a Scots pine.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I think @M. Frary has some good logic to his method so see no reason not to follow that if you are looking for direction, but this quote from your post has me wondering...



Scots pine are a single flush species and as such aren’t decandled. That is a technique reserved for multi flush pines like JBP and JRP. Maybe consider altering how you handle it? You might get away with decandling a single flush pine once, but I wouldn’t rely on that technique as your standard for a Scots pine.

That is exactly what I will be doing. Thanks all for confirming my suspicion about sapping vigor on a Sylvestris.

 

[August44]

So I would like to understand this de-candling subject...I have Lodgepole and Ponderose pines, that I think are single flush pines. How does one ramify and control growth without de-candling? Help appreciated. Peter

 

[sorce]

On your tree particularly, since the top and bottom branches are kinda equal, meaning, in a few years the top will be heavier and getting ugly......

Consider removing the largest buds in the top before spring growth.

Surely leaving the low ones.

@Peter44 decandling elicits backbudding, we just don't call it decandling for single flush. Kinda stupid.
If you don't need backbudding, waiting till just before fall to prune allows maximum energy reload.

Sorce

 

[August44]

Thanks sorce for the help. So if I do need back budding, when do you decandle? And if there are 1-3 candles in one place do you cut them all clear off or 1/2 or ?? All a bit confusing to me being new. Most lodge poles NEED back budding to say the least.. Help appreciated!

 

[sorce]

Thanks sorce for the help. So if I do need back budding, when do you decandle? And if there are 1-3 candles in one place do you cut them all clear off or 1/2 or ?? All a bit confusing to me being new. Most lodge poles NEED back budding to say the least.. Help appreciated!

Forgive me I don't know if logdepoles act the same, but they should.

It depends I reckon. On direction and wanted structure. Surely going back to 2 forks as always.

If all 3 are design useless, cutting a 1/4in or so into last years growth will give better backbudding.
You could cut 1 of 3 for a more limited response, which is where I might be if there are no buds visible currently. Where this move would have the tree thinking about budding back on the bare branch, leaving health/traffic to get those buds plumped, then cutting further later to formed buds.

But do find lodgepole specific advice.

Sorce

 

[SantaFeBonsai]

Do not decandle single flush pines,,, EVER. Removing the terminal bud just in front of realized buds (young buds with new needles) in the fall after third year needles turn brown and can be pulled of easily is the time for this technique.

Back buds on single flush pines are created by vigorous growth caused by heavy fertilization and proper watering, not by decandling.

I highly suggest you join mirai-live, the only place I’ve seen that completely explains the cycle of single flush pines.



The terminal buds on the branch of this PP were snipped a few weeks ago after third year needles started dropping. 3 growing seasons of heavy fertilizing produced an exceptional amount of new adventitious buds that became realized buds, had I decandled before they became realized there would have been a good chance the tree would have stopped backbudding altogether.

This tree wasn’t touched for three seasons after collection. Standard procedure.

 

[SantaFeBonsai]

I need to make a serious edit. My apologies. The above was referencing “LONG NEEDLE” single flush pines. Another reason to join mirai.

 

[August44]

I need to make a serious edit. My apologies. The above was referencing “LONG NEEDLE” single flush pines. Another reason to join mirai.

And do you classify Lodge pole as long needle also?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Lodge pole pine, & Jack pine are closely related. They are short needle single flush pines, and need to be treated like mugo pines or scots pine. Single flush pines NEVER should be decandled.

I'm sure if I sat down with Sorce, we'd come to agreement, but his post was confusing, and missed the point, no decandling for single flush pines.

Most or all work is done in late summer and autumn. After this current year's growth has hardened off. Then you go through and prune off excess branches. You can also prune back to previous season node, IF you still have older needles on a branch.

 

[sorce]

I'm sure if I sat down with Sorce, we'd come to agreement, but his post was confusing, and missed the point, no decandling for single flush pines.

I'm sitting!

The action is essentially the same except for a half inch yes?

The timing is essentially the same except for they can't keep mugo down south.

The reaction, new growth vs new buds, is really the only difference.

Sorce

 

[bonsaichile]

To ramify, @Peter44, you cut the new growth after it has hardened off, as @Leo in N E Illinois says. That should produce buds at the cut site, which you can later in Fall or Winter reduce to 2 per shoot.

 

[chansen]

You can also break scots candles in half to help balance out the growth. Just wait until they're well extended, but before the needles emerge. That way the tree still gets the benefits from the candle/bud extension, you can balance out the growth but not remove all of that year's growth and weaken the tree.

Scots will backbud prolifically if you treat them right. Just remember water + sun = food, and fertilizer = vitamins. So getting the sun/water balance is more important that dumping on more fertilizer.

Thinning out unnecessary growth (buds in the crotches of branches where you don't need them, growth back into the interior of the tree, downward growing stuff, etc.) will open up the interior of the tree and let light through. Without that light you won't get interior growth strong enough that you can cut back to.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Lodge pole pine & Jack pines are short needle single flush pines

 

[Mike Corazzi]

You can also break scots candles in half to help balance out the growth. Just wait until they're well extended, but before the needles emerge. That way the tree still gets the benefits from the candle/bud extension, you can balance out the growth but not remove all of that year's growth and weaken the tree.

Scots will backbud prolifically if you treat them right. Just remember water + sun = food, and fertilizer = vitamins. So getting the sun/water balance is more important that dumping on more fertilizer.

Thinning out unnecessary growth (buds in the crotches of branches where you don't need them, growth back into the interior of the tree, downward growing stuff, etc.) will open up the interior of the tree and let light through. Without that light you won't get interior growth strong enough that you can cut back to.

I got all the budding from moving the tree.
It was cooking in the 110 heat so I put it where it's shade after about 1PM. Then as soon as the heat stopped, I stuck it in full sun.

 

[Punky]

I'm sitting!

The action is essentially the same except for a half inch yes?

The timing is essentially the same except for they can't keep mugo down south.

The reaction, new growth vs new buds, is really the only difference.

Sorce

There are two large differences that I can think of. One is leaving more of the “candle” for single flush, which you mentioned, but I do not agree when you say this is a small difference. Because young needles remain, a single flush with long needles will elongate dramatically if pruned too early, and the optimal timing is when the sheath is drying and being shed. For some species this is very late in the year.

If it is a single flush short needle then timing is much more flexible and you have the luxury of treating it almost like JBP per the Vance Wood method.

With multi-flush the timing trigger is totally different because A) the new growth is completely removed so it doesn’t matter if it was hardened off, and B) the timing is primarily based how much time is left in the growing season before the tree will go dormant.

So there may be a person that needs to prune JBP and mugo at the same time, but applying it to all pines and without understanding the differences between the different strategies then one would be unable to adjust different species and annual variations.

When I was a teenager I would use the stairs at 2 am to go to bed and sometimes at the same time my mom would be using the stairs to go to work. Just because two things happen at the same time (sometimes) does not mean they have the same goals.

 

[sorce]

One is leaving more of the “candle” for single flush

It's actually the opposite.

We cut a "quarter inch" into old growth following the Vance Mugo method.
And leave a "quarter inch" of new growth on JBP.

That's the half inch, which is only different as it is.

The difference is, with JBP we aren't stimulating new growth as much as we are limiting the distance from where the second flush can grow.

With Single flush pines, we ARE trying to stimulate backbudding, which is why we cut back into old wood. For a stronger response.

Sorce