Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Curious if Bristlecone do well down there? Would you consider SW White pine(strobiformis)viable for your purpose
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Weak Roots Japanese White Pine?
- Thread starter CasAH
- Start date
Curious if Bristlecone do well down there? Would you consider SW White pine(strobiformis)viable for your purpose
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It’s not that JWP roots are “weak”, its JBP roots are more vigorous than JWP roots, thus making the slow growing JWP more vigorous. Add to that the trunks of JWP are slow to thicken, and they’re slow to develop mature bark (several decades slow!), grafting on JWP on JBP stock allows growers to produce saleable JWP in a much shorter period of time. (10 years rather than 30.)
jeanluc83
Omono
I collected seeds from a local JWP. I collected about 50-60 seeds of those about 10 sank after being soaked and only 4 sprouted. Unfortunately the tree was cut down the following spring so I didn't get a chance to collect more seeds.
All 4 that sprouted are still growing but S - L - O - W - L - Y. After two seasons they are about the same size as a JBP seedling at 6 months.
I think it would need to be a "16 year" contest to see anything at the end.
CasAH
Chumono
I have been thinking this over, and I think it would be an interesting project. I think it would help people learn about JWP, I just do not know if there would be enough interest.
I think with the JBP contest some people might like to try both, especially if we allow people to graft on to JBP roots. Maybe have two catigories, one for grafted roots, and one on their own roots?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Here is one example of a JWP grown from seed started in 1985 or there about. It is not grafted though there is a definition between the level where the cotyledons grew and the original stem grew. This tree is about ten inches tall and has been cut back several times.
Vance, That makes your tree 30 years old, or older. The lower bark is forming, but most of the trunk is still the smooth grey bark. It takes a LONG time to get JWP to develop mature bark! This is a great example showing how painfully slow JWPs develop mature bark. Thanks for posting this!
jeanluc83
Omono
In the Stone Lantern "Pines" book one of the articles talks about how the bark will mature faster when exposed to full sun. Has this been your experience?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have found in my many attempts to master this tree that it does not do well when grown in full sun around here. Most of the seedlings I tried to grow in this way were lost.
I keep mine in full sun. Whether that has any effect?
Kimura once noticed that in wild, the north side of trees had better bark. That’s the side away from the sun! So he would orient trees so that the side he wanted to have better bark was on the north. Then, wait 5 to 7 years!
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
It is a tough trade-off, in my opinion, given what JBP roots do to JWP foliage. The beauty of JWP (for me) comes from its soft needles. Yes it is very long to develop but that is what makes it special. The moment you graft JWP on JBP rootstock, the needles thicken and become coarser, and the tree loses much of its appeal - to me. I have yet to see a grafted JWP that I couldn't glance at and immediately tell it was a graft by the needle quality. Compare the needles on Vance's tree for example with the needles on the grafted tree that I posted earlier in this thread. They look like completely different tree species.
jeanluc83
Omono
I might have it backwards then. It has been a while since I read through the book.
BNut, it’s not that the JBP makes the grafted JWP foliage stiff, it’s the JWP from seed usually has “inferior” needle quality. The cultivars used for grafting have been chosen for their Needle quality.
So, you’re looking at it backwards!
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Perhaps. In Chicago I owned a JWP import from Japan on its own roots. About 3" trunk caliper at the nebari. Stunning tree. And it didn't look anything like the grafted trees I see now... at least here on the West Coast. I guess the only way to know for certain would be to take JWP stock that had been grafted on to JBP roots, and take a branch and graft it on to JWP roots... and then compare the two trees to each other after a couple of years and see if the foliage changed.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Hmmm, maybe another 6 yr contest...
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Hmmm, maybe another 6 yr contest...
I can't keep 'em alive down here on their own roots... so it is a moot point
I've grown them from seed... but they die. I have bought one year seedlings... but they die.I actually am having better luck with bristlecone and sugar pines
I am going through the list of every native five-needle pine on the West Coast and trying different combinations. I wonder what bristlecone grafted on JBP root-stock would look like?
miker
Chumono
This thread has inspired me to acquire 10-20 JWP seedlings(or young trees on their own roots), so in 30-40 years I will have some trees with some age on their own roots starting to bark up. I already have one JWP seedling that grew almost none this summer, except for the stem getting noticeably thicker.
So does anyone know scientifically whether grafts gain traits of rootstock or not?
Based on my two grafted JWP, the needles appear WAY different than any JBP I've ever seen(and also, appear fully like JWP to me). I cannot say for sure though, whether the needle morphology on mine are not perhaps an intergrade between JWP and JWP.
So does anyone know scientifically whether grafts gain traits of rootstock or not?
Based on my two grafted JWP, the needles appear WAY different than any JBP I've ever seen(and also, appear fully like JWP to me). I cannot say for sure though, whether the needle morphology on mine are not perhaps an intergrade between JWP and JWP.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I have a JWP 'Aoi' grafted on p. sylvestris roots and two others younger/smaller ones on thunbergii roots. I do not see any difference in the foliage color or needle length. Maybe some differences will emerge over time, but the needles will always be JWP cultivar needles.
On the other hand, I do know that the flavor of fruit is affected by the root stock. But a pear grafted to apple roots will still produce pears, not apples, for example.
On the other hand, I do know that the flavor of fruit is affected by the root stock. But a pear grafted to apple roots will still produce pears, not apples, for example.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
There was a discussion about this this week on the bonsai Mirai live stream. The stream was about fall maintenance for JBP. People were asking a lot of question about JBP grafted on ponderosa pine stock. I had never heard of such a thing (ponderosa being a cold hardy mountain pine). Apparently if you graft warm weather JBP branches on a cold weather, old and twisted ponderosa pine trunk, the JBP branches (via hormone seasonality, etc) will allow the ponderosa pine to live in warmer climates like San Diego.
miker
Chumono
So does that indicate that the foliage (rather than the roots) is dominant and the primary determinant in what type of climate the tree as a whole can survive in?
So, take for example the four hypothetical scenarios of trees grown in LA:
JWP on JBP roots = dead
JWP on JWP roots = really dead really fast
JBP on JWP roots = may survive(?)
JBP on JBP roots = survives
So, take for example the four hypothetical scenarios of trees grown in LA:
JWP on JBP roots = dead
JWP on JWP roots = really dead really fast
JBP on JWP roots = may survive(?)
JBP on JBP roots = survives
There’s a lot of different cultivars of JWP. Each has different needle characteristics. The root stock they’re grafted onto doesn’t change the needles.
