Weak Roots Japanese White Pine?

[Bonsai Nut]

So does that indicate that the foliage (rather than the roots) is dominant and the primary determinant in what type of climate the tree as a whole can survive in?

I have no experience in this area. I am just saying what came up in the stream. Ryan specifically said that people were grafting JBP on ponderosa and sugar pine trunks... and they were thriving in San Diego. I agree with your logic which suggests that some pairings wouldn't make sense...

 

[0soyoung]

There was a discussion about this this week on the bonsai Mirai live stream. The stream was about fall maintenance for JBP. People were asking a lot of question about JBP grafted on ponderosa pine stock. I had never heard of such a thing (ponderosa being a cold hardy mountain pine). Apparently if you graft warm weather JBP branches on a cold weather, old and twisted ponderosa pine trunk, the JBP branches (via hormone seasonality, etc) will allow the ponderosa pine to live in warmer climates like San Diego.

Bud chill.

P. Thunbergii has no bud chilling need.
P. Ponderosa does, as do virtually all alpine species.

 

[MichaelS]

I grew a bunch of white pines from seed 17 years ago. The thickest one is about 1 1/2 inches thick. Most are half that (they have been pinched)

 

[Adair M]

I grew a bunch of white pines from seed 17 years ago. The thickest one is about 1 1/2 inches thick. Most are half that (they have been pinched)

Michael, do the needles of all your seedlings look the same? Or is there a variation of the needles from one tree to another?

 

[MichaelS]

Michael, do the needles of all your seedlings look the same? Or is there a variation of the needles from one tree to another?

There is variation but it's closely linked to the vigour of the tree. I am just beginning to learn the right way to grow them (17 years!) The needles change their appearance as the roots develop - that is they are getting thicker and a bit more compact as the years pass. Some are definitely better than others though. I now have them in clay pots and intend to repot only every 5 years just replacing the top inch or so each year. They seem to enjoy tight feet and fast drying.

 

[hemmy]

I have no experience in this area. I am just saying what came up in the stream. Ryan specifically said that people were grafting JBP on ponderosa and sugar pine trunks... and they were thriving in San Diego. I agree with your logic which suggests that some pairings wouldn't make sense...

So I believe a previous winter hardiness stream discussed hardiness as related to the ability to store sugars as related to root thickness. Does the JWP have coarser roots than the JBP?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

There is variation but it's closely linked to the vigour of the tree. I am just beginning to learn the right way to grow them (17 years!) The needles change their appearance as the roots develop - that is they are getting thicker and a bit more compact as the years pass. Some are definitely better than others though. I now have them in clay pots and intend to repot only every 5 years just replacing the top inch or so each year. They seem to enjoy tight feet and fast drying.

This is indirectly related, but since we are getting ready for the six-year black pine contest, I have re-read the black pine from seed article several times. One thing the Japanese pine grower did/does is select only the largest seeds, and he keeps only the strongest seedlings. One reason I am starting with 1000 seeds is the hope to get 500 healthy seedlings to survive through cutting phase... after which I will select the strongest 100 to move into year two.

After a quick Internet search, the only scientific article I can find on the impact of using different rootstocks on pines is this one:

Rootstock effects on scion growth and reproduction in 8-year-old grafted loblolly pine

The study reached the conclusion that both scions and rootstock could impact aspects of adult loblolly pines, but scion selection had a greater, and more widespread impact than rootstock selection - at least for the scions and rootstocks used in the study, and for the dwarfing and seed production traits they were hoping to influence. They did not measure or comment on whether there was any impact on needle length or appearance. Also they were not using different pine species rootstocks - they were grafting lines of loblolly scions on lines of loblolly rootstocks.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you want the kings of the Japanese White Pine cultivars here they are. At least, they have a larger collection of them than anyone I have ever encountered.

Kigi Nursery

By the way, I spoke with Justin Homer at Kigi Nursery and he said all their Japanese White Pines are grafted on to JBP rootstock. I ordered a couple of the ones that appeared to have the shortest, most fine needles to see how they would do down here.

Perhaps my perceptions of JWP are based solely on a limited number of cultivars that are available in this market (Southern Cal?). Or maybe I just need to get out more

Here's to hoping that these cultivars will look different!!

 

[Adair M]

By the way, I spoke with Justin Homer at Kigi Nursery and he said all their Japanese White Pines are grafted on to JBP rootstock. I ordered a couple of the ones that appeared to have the shortest, most fine needles to see how they would do down here.

Perhaps my perceptions of JWP are based solely on a limited number of cultivars that are available in this market (Southern Cal?). Or maybe I just need to get out more

Here's to hoping that these cultivars will look different!!

I doubt any JWP cultivar will do well in Southern California. These are mountain trees, where winters are long and cold, and summers are short. What happens in warm climates, is they grow too much in summer. More than they are “programmed” to do. They kind of burn themselves out. Which is why some people try to grow them under shade cloth. Also the more vigorous JBP rootstock helps to support JWP in warm climates.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I doubt any JWP cultivar will do well in Southern California. These are mountain trees, where winters are long and cold, and summers are short. What happens in warm climates, is they grow too much in summer. More than they are “programmed” to do. They kind of burn themselves out. Which is why some people try to grow them under shade cloth. Also the more vigorous JBP rootstock helps to support JWP in warm climates.

This is an interesting exercise, because I am getting some conflicting advice. It is a good for me to be more inquisitive and open-minded.

My perception is that people can keep JWP here... but only on JBP roots. On their own roots they will die. I even see JWP trees for sale in some of the local nurseries. I kept a poorly grafted JWP here for a couple of years until I killed it - due to a mistake in care and not due to anything related to strength. However I don't consider two-three years to be any indication of long-term success.

Now I am hearing from a couple of sources that the cold hardiness of a tree (and whether it will survive outside of its normal zones) may be driven by the foliage/buds and not by the roots(?) At least that is what I took away from the conversations about grafting JBP on ponderosa root stock - thereby allowing ponderosa to live in San Diego(?)

[EDIT]

I checked back with Kigi and they said they sell grafted JWP to many warmer locations - even Hawaii. I guess time will tell.

 

[Goodbrake]

By the way... this is one reason why I have been playing around with Bristlecone and Sugar Pines. I have been looking for a five-needle short needle pine that will grow on its own roots here in Southern California.

I realize this is an old post, but how much success have you had growing these 5 needle pines in Southern California? I'd love a 5 needle pine that I could grow in Austin (zone 8b, with summer highs getting into the low 100's most years for at least a few days.)