GGB
Masterpiece
Damn, good for you. I'm guilty of believing everything I read. not a good a trait obviously. Hopefully they stay strong in the long term
Wanted: Acer Palmatum ‘Seigen’
- Thread starter Brian Van Fleet
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Just for those in the EU: Deshima bonsai received a bunch of nice Seigens from Japan recently. Last weekend a friend of mine drove down and bought one. I understand they are selling quickly. Contact them directly, I doubt they are in their online store.
Ohmy222
Shohin
Mother trees in the ground with 3 layers and 11 cuttings. All cuttings are recently rooted this year. Two layers are from last year. As you can see my layers are almost always clumps or multi-trunks. I’m a sucker for them.
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BonsaiDTLA
Shohin
I've noticed some discrepancies in his book as well, but the vendor I got my Seigen from also stated the same about needing to graft Seigen for success. This is the first time I've read of someone successfully getting them to root on their own roots. Congrats and hope they work out great moving forward.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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Sometimes, when a text is translated from a foreign language into English, and when the translator himself is very obviously not a native English speaker, it is important to be a patient, understanding, and sympathetic reader.
Seigen
On page 86 he says that Seigen "can be propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings". He adds "in most cases it is actually propagated by grafting onto rootstock from seed"
Anybody who has tried to propagate Seigen or Deshojo from cuttings knows how difficult it can be. Whereas you can expect a +90% success rate for Acer Palmatum 'Arakawa', 'Kashima', 'Katsura', "Kiyo Hime', 'Koto Hime', etc. the success rate for Seigen and Deshojo is truly much lower. So when one reads “can be propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings", we know that he likely means:
"can [easily] be propagated propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings" (i.e. not as easily through cuttings)
or
"[is often] propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings" (i.e. cuttings are not the most common method)
or something along those lines....
As it happens, i’ve spoken to Andrea about Seigen and that’s exactly what he meant: Seigen can be propagated via cutting, but it isn’t standard practice
I have also spoken to propagators and growers in Japan, and the standard practice for propagating Seigen and Deshojo is via air layer or grafting--of course, they are not grafting with ugly scion grafts like our North American landscape growers allow themselves to do.
Shishi Gashira
on page 88 (see attached) he says that Shishi Gashira "can be propagated by grafting on rootstock, or by air layering. It is not possible to air layer it".
I have spoken to Andrea, and the second part of this quote is an obvious typo. The second sentence was supposed to say that it cannot (i.e. is extremely difficult) be propagated via cuttings
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GGB
Masterpiece
@Canada Bonsai thanks for the deep dive
For those in Europe, I found this today https://www.maillot-erable.com/en/boutique/37_acer-palmatum/900_seigen
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Here is an update on this Seigen, it has grown to around 48” tall now, with the trunk around thumb-thick. I plan to let it keep growing, and propagate it with air-layers to start with decent-sized trunks.
Ohmy222
Shohin
Nice! Mine is a smaller as I started propagating asap. Pretty vigorous growth.
ibakey
Mame
How’s your Seigen coming along Brian? Did it grow a ton over Covid?
Challenge accepted
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Yes, it is around 5’ tall and wide. It’s in a place that is difficult to photograph, but it is growing well. I may attempt some air-layers next spring.
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james
Shohin
Brian, looks like you are on your way with Seigen! Could you tell me your thoughts regarding Seigen v Deshosho? I’ve propagated Deshosho, and love the leaves in spring. By summer, much like any other Japanese maple. Your thoughts?
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Haven’t grown any Deshojo. The Seigen goes light green in the summer and new growth has been a decent red, but my Chishio holds the red color longer into the spring, and new growth seems brighter. I’ll have to make a side-by-side shot now that my Chishio is starting to throw a few summer shoots. The leaf shape and size is very good on the Seigen, and it seems like the foliage and internodes can be reduced in size. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the green bark to mature. Something tells me that’s going to take a while.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Here is a comparison of new shoots, ’Chishio Improved’ on the left, ‘Seigen’ on the right. One interesting note is the leaf shape of the Seigen is much more consistent.
ibakey
Mame
Wow, it has grown significantly in a relatively short time. I just acquired a small Seigen just like what you had before and was wondering how vigorous the cultivar Seigen was. Thanks for sharing your pics. Indeed, I prefer the lighter green leaves if the Seigen during the summer compared to the darker ones of the deshojo.
Driftwood
Mame
Hi, have you tried cuttings? I just failed to root three cuttings taken three weeks ago, I was late this year and it was very warm but anyway I can already tell is more difficult than standard mountain maple.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Not yet. I’ll likely try an air-layer next spring to test the waters.
Ohmy222
Shohin
This place has some. They are a good place to buy maples from but I have not bought this one from them
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
Thanks for sharing i just got one. I emailed them a few months back and they said they may have some on August 1st. I guess they released them early
