Underdogs Hinoki Challenger
- Thread starter Underdog
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discusmike
Omono
I would learn how to graft Underdog,so you could get some inner growth started
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AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
A tree saved is a tree gained 
Frankly, Underdog, it looks ugly, doesn't it?
But you've been given good advice, it must encourage you to see it as a long-term project (5, 6 years ?) to make it a beautiful Literati.
The "technique" of clearing shoots so that the inner foliage doesn't die at the end of summer is hard to master, but your tree has recovered well now, the foliage pads look very healthy so a very nice "Literati" is on its way if you take good care of it.
Like Sequoiadendron, Cryptomeria, Larch, even most pines, etc. I think these trees (mostly mountain conifers) appreciate a spray of cold water before sunbreak....
Frankly, Underdog, it looks ugly, doesn't it?
But you've been given good advice, it must encourage you to see it as a long-term project (5, 6 years ?) to make it a beautiful Literati.
The "technique" of clearing shoots so that the inner foliage doesn't die at the end of summer is hard to master, but your tree has recovered well now, the foliage pads look very healthy so a very nice "Literati" is on its way if you take good care of it.
Like Sequoiadendron, Cryptomeria, Larch, even most pines, etc. I think these trees (mostly mountain conifers) appreciate a spray of cold water before sunbreak....
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You have only one viable choice with this tree. You know there is no way to get the growth in closer to the trunk by pinching it back and praying for back budding. You have to come to the conclusion as a given. If that is true the only way to get the growth in closer is to wire the branches so that the growth is in closer to the trunk, which means putting a lot of twists and curves in existing branches and or wiring the branches down so that the growth appears closer to the trunk. That is essentially the secret behind the dancing lady.
Following are a series of photos of this tree from 1990's though its development through today. In one picture you can follow the trunk chops over the period of years. Notice that the foliage pads are laid out not stacked up. The tips are like little hands laid out flat individually not into wads of growth. This means you have to wire everything, and remove stuff that is not need to fill the design.
Following are a series of photos of this tree from 1990's though its development through today. In one picture you can follow the trunk chops over the period of years. Notice that the foliage pads are laid out not stacked up. The tips are like little hands laid out flat individually not into wads of growth. This means you have to wire everything, and remove stuff that is not need to fill the design.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I wish I knew the secret of these trees... but I don't. I have tried for years to keep them in southern California, but have been unsuccessful. They will look great for a year or so... and then when the weather gets hot and dry I will get browning on the tips of the foliage - even if I give it shade protection. I have a couple in a large landscape planter and they looked great for a couple of years, and then in the fall, they die back horribly (with no root work / wiring / pruning having been done to them).
They are one of my favorite species, but seem extremely sensitive. There are a couple in landscape in the Huntington Gardens (up in Pasadena) that are very healthy. They are growing in turf in partial sun / partial shade as undercanopy trees. I have also seen a few massive ones in landscape about an hour north of San Francisco... but that is about half the coast north of my location.
I think they need high humidity, lots of rain, and acidic soil. They need high light... but sun that's too intense may burn the new foliage(? needs to be confirmed by others). Would love to hear from people who are keeping this species successfully.
They are one of my favorite species, but seem extremely sensitive. There are a couple in landscape in the Huntington Gardens (up in Pasadena) that are very healthy. They are growing in turf in partial sun / partial shade as undercanopy trees. I have also seen a few massive ones in landscape about an hour north of San Francisco... but that is about half the coast north of my location.
I think they need high humidity, lots of rain, and acidic soil. They need high light... but sun that's too intense may burn the new foliage(? needs to be confirmed by others). Would love to hear from people who are keeping this species successfully.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
They need a good deal of water and partial shade. If you grow them in full sun and try to water them like other conifers you will cook them like a cheap pork chop. Post #25 documents the life of the same tree since 1990 till the present. I don't know if that means I have success with them but I don't personally know of anyone who has kept any one of them any where near as long. That's 19 years or so.
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parhamr
Omono
The “Dr. Seuss” sort of look that’s happening is a good, fun thing 
Yes, I've not removed any foliage intentionally as this thing has been so sickly for years. Finally looking healthy so I wired some the pads to open them up but can't make myself remove anything off the bottom yet. Pom Poms I know but lush onesThe “Dr. Seuss” sort of look that’s happening is a good, fun thing
PeaceLoveBonsai
Chumono
Hey @Vance Wood , your post #25 shows 4 trunk chops on your tree. Could the OP make a trunk chop on his and begin to regrow this tree essentially from scratch? Or does a trunk chop need to be done while in the ground?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
My trunk chops were all made in the pot. Totally pot grown once I got hold of it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There is no way I would try to suggest to you how you should grow your tree. At some point you will decide what to do. I can tell by the nature of your wiring you are still struggling with the concepts of design. Design is a hard thing to do if you are having trouble getting the tree to do what you want it to do. I don't mean to humiliate you or cause any other negative feelings but this stuff does not come without instruction and study. An important point to consider, this tree has a nice trunk and deserves proper attention.
I would certainly listen
I agree. You can only learn so much by reading. Doing is how I learn but, doing without knowing may be worse. LOL
I don't know anyone around me doing this stuff to learn from. I really should join a club but all are at least an hour away.
PeaceLoveBonsai
Chumono
If this was my tree, I think I would proceed as follows. First, I would pull all the wire. Then I would spend the rest of the growing season Letting it rest, and fert heavily.
In the late spring, I would chop.
Keep everything below this chop for now. That will help the tree have the strength to regrow. But, long term, everything below the chop will be jinned. Notice on Vance’s tree that the first branch comes about 2/3’s up the tree.
The branches of a hinoki look best when dropped down, so I would regrow the tree from the new chop site. Literally every branch currently on the tree would not be in the final design.
That my 2 cents. It will take years, maybe decades. But, I just don’t see a way forward with this tree as is.
In the late spring, I would chop.
Keep everything below this chop for now. That will help the tree have the strength to regrow. But, long term, everything below the chop will be jinned. Notice on Vance’s tree that the first branch comes about 2/3’s up the tree.
The branches of a hinoki look best when dropped down, so I would regrow the tree from the new chop site. Literally every branch currently on the tree would not be in the final design.
That my 2 cents. It will take years, maybe decades. But, I just don’t see a way forward with this tree as is.
Ugh... I don't have the guts for that...
Thanks for your time and thoughts GDY. While you are probably right, I simply can't do that. This dwarf variety is such a slow grower it would be decades... I don't have that kinda time left on this earth.
I am going to cut the wire off with the wrap under it. It was put on last fall. I'm leaving the thin wire placed in the pads to open and flatten them out as it was put on recently. I'll see if the branches have set.
Please don't think I don't value your opinion (or others who I hope chime in especially Vance) You are likely right but, I'll have to keep trying with what I have to work with for now.
I want to learn to graft next. Will these take grafts? I've been trying to grow a cutting. I would try more if they will take.
Thanks for your time and thoughts GDY. While you are probably right, I simply can't do that. This dwarf variety is such a slow grower it would be decades... I don't have that kinda time left on this earth.
I am going to cut the wire off with the wrap under it. It was put on last fall. I'm leaving the thin wire placed in the pads to open and flatten them out as it was put on recently. I'll see if the branches have set.
Please don't think I don't value your opinion (or others who I hope chime in especially Vance) You are likely right but, I'll have to keep trying with what I have to work with for now.
I want to learn to graft next. Will these take grafts? I've been trying to grow a cutting. I would try more if they will take.
Japonicus
Imperial Masterpiece
then consider this angle
My idea for this Underdog starts where Gdy's idea started, precisely.
However, what is below that chop line...
(1st let me say I like the planting angle you have, for your original plan)
...would be jinned left side per the photo rendered (keeping the foliage left behind on the left side till vigour returns, then jin and increase the planting angle
to create the right side as the new bonsai.
1st you want to keep all the foliage (I would) for energy stores, feed quite heavily this year
particularly late Summer into Fall. Then chop next year.
Grab the tree, wedge the right side up rotate it 180º and share your thoughts...share a pic of that please...
(if you take a pic of that scenario, place something over the lowest right branch to shade it out of the pic and maybe the 3rd branch as well)
I just cannot make out heads or tails of what foliage is above the interesting
#2 right side branch and what is occurring on nuisance conflicting branches ...new bonsai.
For sure, purchase a hinoki of this current height that you would like to create what
you would have with this one...in much less time, + then you have 2.
I have a larger leggy one I learn on, + then you have a parent tree to offer possible grafts later
should you go that route.
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