Ugly Ducklings - Suggestions, advice please

[Cadillactaste]

Yes, but think mame...a thin trunk would appear bigger. If you wanted a fun project. But they are slow to thicken...with having one myself. Just was thinking of the top.

Chop as shown then, how long is that straight slanted trunk before that new leader? Looks like it might bud lower...just thinking options...one it's always best to chop the shortest for the best results...no? But...I think you could still use this current material...and find a good piece now you have an eye for what you need in material. Growing on your journey. ? good feeling eh?

 

[Forest Bean]

Air layer and/or chop that pyracantha for plenty of cuttings. A lot of work and time needed for those elms, but every tree needs time. I've never had an elm so I don't really have any suggestions for them.

 

[BrianBay9]

Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Just debating now.. if I chop, it may lose its vigor and might take along time to push strong growth. Am I wasting branch opportunities for grafting, by removing it all.. I plan on using quite a few branches for grafting, because this tree has such little potential. Gotta create it!

Pyracantha are very vigorous growers. If you chop low and leave that one low branch, fertilize the heck out of it and it will respond aggressively. Will probably bud out lower on the trunk too.

 

[Cadillactaste]

A year ago...I may not have said "look into the branching for a mame tree. But I am part of that mame contest...and, there is something to mame trees. This is my Boston Ivy...but, makes me see things differently than...I once did.

 

[ConorDash]

Yes, but think mame...a thin trunk would appear bigger. If you wanted a fun project. But they are slow to thicken...with having one myself. Just was thinking of the top.

Chop as shown then, how long is that straight slanted trunk before that new leader? Looks like it might bud lower...just thinking options...one it's always best to chop the shortest for the best results...no? But...I think you could still use this current material...and find a good piece now you have an eye for what you need in material. Growing on your journey. ? good feeling eh?

Whether I chop to as low as I want now, or do it in 2 chop phases, either way I want it small. Like stupid cute small lol.
Before the 90 degree branch you mean? It’s about 7-8”.
I’m thinking of doing that chop 3, green, on my picture for reference.
Chop to that then maybe end of growing season chop down lower.. give it chance and time to redirect energy for growth, lower down the trunk. Also keeping more green growth on the chopped tree, would be beneficial for it, don’t you think? Chopping it super low, right away will leave it with barely any green.

Air layer and/or chop that pyracantha for plenty of cuttings. A lot of work and time needed for those elms, but every tree needs time. I've never had an elm so I don't really have any suggestions for them.

Refer to previous page reference pic, chop marks and numbers. How far down would you chop, and why?

 

[ConorDash]

Pyracantha are very vigorous growers. If you chop low and leave that one low branch, fertilize the heck out of it and it will respond aggressively. Will probably bud out lower on the trunk too.

I’ve just started it’s organic fert for the season, applied it to the top of the soil 3 days ago. I also fert with liquid miracle grow, all round general stuff. But haven’t started that yet.
Looking at the previous pic with chop locations, which one would you do? Leave that entire big branch and chop rest off? I’m starting to think taking it slower by enduring lower budding and green growth, then chopping down is a better way to go?
Have you good experience with pyracantha?

 

[ConorDash]

A year ago...I may not have said "look into the branching for a mame tree. But I am part of that mame contest...and, there is something to mame trees. This is my Boston Ivy...but, makes me see things differently than...I once did.
View attachment 185220

Such lovely dark rich green leaves . I want to get in to one of these forum contests sometime. Maybe next year.
I do really like smaller trees, my maple which you may have seen is biggest I’d go, by far.

 

[BrianBay9]

I’ve just started it’s organic fert for the season, applied it to the top of the soil 3 days ago. I also fert with liquid miracle grow, all round general stuff. But haven’t started that yet.
Looking at the previous pic with chop locations, which one would you do? Leave that entire big branch and chop rest off? I’m starting to think taking it slower by enduring lower budding and green growth, then chopping down is a better way to go?
Have you good experience with pyracantha?

I would chop low all at once. The only trouble I've had with pyracantha is a disease called fireblight.

 

[Smoke]

I try not to be wasteful, I see use in the top pieces, too.

You know what a hoarder is? That's the kind of thing a hoarder would say......let it go!

 

[Smoke]

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand that :/. Currently it’s a big stick, straight, I want quite a small tree out of it so I am happy to chop down low, get good growth going and build from there.
I could build on branches and nebari by grading from the long growth it’ll shoot out.
Just thinking along the lines of, things have gotta start from the trunk and be worked on. Usually start with nebari but this doesn’t have any lol



Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Just debating now.. if I chop, it may lose its vigor and might take along time to push strong growth. Am I wasting branch opportunities for grafting, by removing it all.. I plan on using quite a few branches for grafting, because this tree has such little potential. Gotta create it!

I can tell you right now from experience that elm trees do not build correct taper easily by chopping. It has to be built from very small material, matchstick size stuff, and then worked over a period of years. When done correctly the results can be spectacular. When done poorly it looks like a segmented mess. Building taper like this is not easy.

 

[ConorDash]

I can tell you right now from experience that elm trees do not build correct taper easily by chopping. It has to be built from very small material, matchstick size stuff, and then worked over a period of years. When done correctly the results can be spectacular. When done poorly it looks like a segmented mess. Building taper like this is not easy.

View attachment 185248

Hey Smoke,
The message you quoted, we were referring to the pyracantha .
Not planning to chop the elms, currently any way.
What elm is that in your pic? It’s bark is lovely.
Thanks for the reply.

I would chop low all at once. The only trouble I've had with pyracantha is a disease called fireblight.

Ok good to know. I’ve just been told about this by someone else, I’ve not actually heard of it. I’ll certainly look it that now! I use a systemic fungicide, started it a few days ago and will continue routinely for the growing season.
I’ll look in to the disease though and take action to avoid. Cheers!

 

[BrianBay9]

Fireblight, as I understand it, is a bacterial disease spread by pollinating insects. It's more prevalent in some areas than others. No treatment that I'm aware of other than cutting off infecting limbs and disposing of them promptly.

 

[JoeH]

You know what a hoarder is? That's the kind of thing a hoarder would say......let it go!

Nice as usual. Stay Classy.

 

[ConorDash]

Fireblight, as I understand it, is a bacterial disease spread by pollinating insects. It's more prevalent in some areas than others. No treatment that I'm aware of other than cutting off infecting limbs and disposing of them promptly.

Yes I’ve read up on it. It’s rare in the U.K. but no cure for it.
Have you enough experience with the species to give indication on timing for a major prune?

 

[CWTurner]

You have some long branches on that pyracantha. Why not bend 2-3 of them around to the first few inches of the base, slice off a bit of bark, and see if you can get them to graft in. That way you are getting something out of all that growth, and adding to the base at the same time.
CW

 

[ConorDash]

You have some long branches on that pyracantha. Why not bend 2-3 of them around to the first few inches of the base, slice off a bit of bark, and see if you can get them to graft in. That way you are getting something out of all that growth, and adding to the base at the same time.
CW

Yeh I’ve thought of this and I do intend to graft in future.
It does seem an idea to do this now, as I loads of growth so I’ve loads of options to choose from..
It’s weighing up.. chop, work on developing the core of the trunk and a leader then in a few years, it’ll have those branches and shoots to use for graft. Or, use those shoots now and graft then chop later..

Starting to think it makes more sense to use all this tree now, graft and then chop.
With all the growth, it’ll continue generating all that energy it collects. Chopping it, it won’t be generating that kinda energy again for a number of years.

 

[ConorDash]

Hey @markyscott , may I ask your advice a moment? As I know you are experienced with grafting (and a good deal else, in Bonsai).
In regards to grafting. If I were to use grafting for some branches on this pyracantha (pics on first page), as I do plan to because I’ll be remaking this tree from nothing, would the whole process be better before chopping it?
As it stands I want to chop it down very low. This would remove all its green and the shoots it currently has all over it. But would allow me to start working on a new leader and get its short trunk developing. After that, using grafting or not, if not needed.

Would it better to do any grafting down low, now, as opposed to later?

 

[markyscott]

Hey @markyscott , may I ask your advice a moment? As I know you are experienced with grafting (and a good deal else, in Bonsai).
In regards to grafting. If I were to use grafting for some branches on this pyracantha (pics on first page), as I do plan to because I’ll be remaking this tree from nothing, would the whole process be better before chopping it?
As it stands I want to chop it down very low. This would remove all its green and the shoots it currently has all over it. But would allow me to start working on a new leader and get its short trunk developing. After that, using grafting or not, if not needed.

Would it better to do any grafting down low, now, as opposed to later?

Hi Conor - I've not worked with Pyracantha, but it looks like you have a low shoot already. Why don't you consider taking it in stages. First prune back the top growth to push more growth to that lower shoot. When it starts to grow well, you can cut back to that shoot and see what else pops further down on the trunk. You might even layer some branches or strike some cuttings from the part you're pruning so you can have more material to experiment with.

S

 

[ConorDash]

Hi Conor - I've not worked with Pyracantha, but it looks like you have a low shoot already. Why don't you consider taking it in stages. First prune back the top growth to push more growth to that lower shoot. When it starts to grow well, you can cut back to that shoot and see what else pops further down on the trunk. You might even layer some branches or strike some cuttings from the part you're pruning so you can have more material to experiment with.

S

Ok dokie, that’s a good option. I think someone mentioned this too.

This is probably the safe option. Good learning experience too, to see how it reacts to hard prune without going fully chop.
Thanks.

Now to work out when’s best time for this..

 

[drew33998]

I'd chop the pyra to the lowest node. Wire some movement in the new leader and just let it grow free for a long time. You can chop it back to create taper every couple years. If you are happy with shohin I'd do the same thing except put a little more movement in the new leader. Maybe let it go for 2 seasons then chop back leaving two nodes on the new leader. One will be your primary branch on the new leader. So on and so forth.