Thuja occidentalis from stock - cold tolerance

[Frozentreehugger]

All of the above. Normally only a huge problem with drastic branch and or trunk movement . With less heavy movement . The tree will re orient itself . If you just wire the branches and or trunk . And don’t wire the fine branches . A few days sun will fix it . With these it’s a good practice . If your going to fully wire it to wait those few days . The big problem is if you wire the fine branches upside down and they can’t right themselves it will kill the foliage

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Thought I would put this here for reference. I have some of this coming this spring . Iseli. Nursery intro so any nursery that deals with them should be able to order it . It’s a dwarf thuja cultivar , it has the most compact tight ramified foliage I have seen on thuja . Also very nice colour . Would make a nice bonsai on its own . But my interest lies in grafting it to wild collected trees . Here in the north east you can find (rare but still out there ) cold wind tortured wild trees with incredible dwarf foliage . This is impossible to sustain in cultivation . And any attempt to withhold water to create it produce great firewood

 

[NeyensNeuro]

Thought I would put this here for reference. I have some of this coming this spring . Iseli. Nursery intro so any nursery that deals with them should be able to order it . It’s a dwarf thuja cultivar , it has the most compact tight ramified foliage I have seen on thuja . Also very nice colour . Would make a nice bonsai on its own . But my interest lies in grafting it to wild collected trees . Here in the north east you can find (rare but still out there ) cold wind tortured wild trees with incredible dwarf foliage . This is impossible to sustain in cultivation . And any attempt to withhold water to create it produce great firewood

Not that I could get the foliage that small anyway, but how far could I cut branches to encourage fine ramification and smaller pads?

 

[nuttiest]

people in my neighborhood cut thujas back to all stubs on trunk, looks like they are trying to kill it, and they recover easily. I recently noticed one that is very large and the lowest branches kept cut, looks like a mature leyland cypress that way..

 

[HorseloverFat]

Not that I could get the foliage that small anyway, but how far could I cut branches to encourage fine ramification and smaller pads?

Cut back.until branch taper is reasonable...

Then you treat each thuja foliage like it is many branches... "Pinching" and shaping...

A lot of people give Nigel hell... But his thuja trimming methods (when it comes to ramifying pads) are pretty spot on.

 

[NeyensNeuro]

I suppose this is all a fun experiment anyway! I'll prune back until the taper I like, letting other branches elongate and thicken, and trim the pads to encourage finer ramification nearer the trunk.

Honestly, my fiancé will probably hate me, but I want to get another later this spring

 

[HorseloverFat]

I suppose this is all a fun experiment anyway! I'll prune back until the taper I like, letting other branches elongate and thicken, and trim the pads to encourage finer ramification nearer the trunk.

Honestly, my fiancé will probably hate me, but I want to get another later this spring

Hehe... Another ONE, eh?...

Buckle up...

That's a low estimate.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Not that I could get the foliage that small anyway, but how far could I cut branches to encourage fine ramification and smaller pads?

You can’t get foliage that small . Use a cultivar . Not sure what your actually asking . They do not reliable back bud on old wood . Ie once it’s brown , develops trunk first . For max back budding surpress the apical dominance . Allow branches to grow heavy fert . Once branches are heavily growing cut back in early summer to growth close to trunk cut all branches . This will get max back budding this may have to take place more than once . But mist of my experience is with older collected trees . Young tree should respond faster . The small growth becomes future main branches pinch the tip to promote side branches . Pad development comes last, trunk then branches then pads . Wrong order just slows the process down . Ie creating pads on a branch that needs development

 

[NeyensNeuro]

You can’t get foliage that small . Use a cultivar . Not sure what your actually asking . They do not reliable back bud on old wood . Ie once it’s brown , develops trunk first . For max back budding surpress the apical dominance . Allow branches to grow heavy fert . Once branches are heavily growing cut back in early summer to growth close to trunk cut all branches . This will get max back budding this may have to take place more than once . But mist of my experience is with older collected trees . Young tree should respond faster . The small growth becomes future main branches pinch the tip to promote side branches . Pad development comes last, trunk then branches then pads . Wrong order just slows the process down . Ie creating pads on a branch that needs development

This is exactly what I was asking! Thank you

 

[Frozentreehugger]

This is exactly what I was asking! Thank you

No problem I can explain better if needed I am at work so was kind of fast

 

[HorseloverFat]

As far as back budding... Yes.. reliability is sparse/spotty.

When healthy... Like... "SOOO damn green at least two years"- healthy.. they WILL back bud, pretty aggressively... But ONLY down to the crotches of HEALTHY branches (or VERY near, like sharing the same cluster of mother cells 'point')...and this proves.... LESS useful than you'd imagine! ((Even at that.. still not a PROMISE!))

So.. they ONLY back-bud to where they, themselves can PROVE vigorous growth is... They do NOT like to take wild chances.

Everything @Frozentreehugger said about branch development order is spot on, listen to that cat!

 

[NeyensNeuro]

As far as back budding... Yes.. reliability is sparse/spotty.

When healthy... Like... "SOOO damn green at least two years"- healthy.. they WILL back bud, pretty aggressively... But ONLY down to the crotches of HEALTHY branches (or VERY near, like sharing the same cluster of mother cells 'point')...and this proves.... LESS useful than you'd imagine! ((Even at that.. still not a PROMISE!))

So.. they ONLY back-bud to where they, themselves can PROVE vigorous growth is... They do NOT like to take wild chances.

Everything @Frozentreehugger said about branch development order is spot on, listen to that cat!

This might be the year for back budding then, after aggressive pruning. It was vivid green when I picked it up! Here's hoping..

I really like the "ancient, cathedral cedar" look with deadwood/jin at the top and a dense apex. I at least have a picture in mind

I've reduced the apex some, removed sucker shoots from around the base and removed some branches between the "father" and "son" trunks. The lower/inner branches will get more sun now...I think I'm nearing the point where I need to leave it the hell alone and grow

 

[Frozentreehugger]

This might be the year for back budding then, after aggressive pruning. It was vivid green when I picked it up! Here's hoping..

I really like the "ancient, cathedral cedar" look with deadwood/jin at the top and a dense apex. I at least have a picture in mind

I've reduced the apex some, removed sucker shoots from around the base and removed some branches between the "father" and "son" trunks. The lower/inner branches will get more sun now...I think I'm nearing the point where I need to leave it the hell alone and grow

Do you have some pics . Several angles with a neutral light coloured is best background

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Info just in case you are not aware . Eastern cedar . Has incredible rot resistant wood . Arguable the most rot resistant wood In eastern North America . Especially when wet . Heavily used in water and in the ground . The European settlers split it lengthwise and made fences out of it . Especially in the Ottawa river valley . There are fences exposed to the elements zone 4 that are over 150 years old I have seen them not to mention inspirational for bonsai See my thread tree beards children fir the oldest tree In Ontario . My advice if you want to start at bonsai . And considering you live at the foot of the Rockies . Is buy some quality hiking boots . And get inspired . Ps ( take a shovel with you )

 

[NeyensNeuro]

Do you have some pics . Several angles with a neutral light coloured is best background

First pruning was intense, creating a lot of space by removing sucker shoots and thick interior branches between the two trunks that I want to keep.

I've created a jin at the apex and reduced the foliage a bit on the top branches; I would like to connect the deadwood on the main trunk all the way down to the first branch that was cut.

I haven't wired anything, and I'm waiting to further prune the leggy branches after it regains some strength (and after the foliage pads right themselves towards the sun).

I have a vision of what I would like it to be, but I know that I may have tried to move too quickly.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Info just in case you are not aware . Eastern cedar . Has incredible rot resistant wood . Arguable the most rot resistant wood In eastern North America . Especially when wet . Heavily used in water and in the ground . The European settlers split it lengthwise and made fences out of it . Especially in the Ottawa river valley . There are fences exposed to the elements zone 4 that are over 150 years old I have seen them not to mention inspirational for bonsai See my thread tree beards children fir the oldest tree In Ontario . My advice if you want to start at bonsai . And considering you live at the foot of the Rockies . Is buy some quality hiking boots . And get inspired . Ps ( take a shovel with you )

I have a big deadwood section that i'm planning on NOT treating... And seeing what time does to it.

 

[HorseloverFat]

First pruning was intense, creating a lot of space by removing sucker shoots and thick interior branches between the two trunks that I want to keep.

I've created a jin at the apex and reduced the foliage a bit on the top branches; I would like to connect the deadwood on the main trunk all the way down to the first branch that was cut.

I haven't wired anything, and I'm waiting to further prune the leggy branches after it regains some strength (and after the foliage pads right themselves towards the sun).

I have a vision of what I would like it to be, but I know that I may have tried to move too quickly.

Hehe!!! You'd be startled by what my moves would have been!!

But looking good... Take it slow until you KNOW!

 

[NeyensNeuro]

Nigel Saunders says that he likes to keep the primary branches straight up, cathedral style, and then just train the secondary branches down to create the "flame" silhouette typical of cedars. Is this what most people do as well? The main trunk on my tree has some thick primary branches, and I'm a little unsure what direction to take them

 

[HorseloverFat]

Nigel Saunders says that he likes to keep the primary branches straight up, cathedral style, and then just train the secondary branches down to create the "flame" silhouette typical of cedars. Is this what most people do as well? The main trunk on my tree has some thick primary branches, and I'm a little unsure what direction to take them

Ehh..

Just Nigel's pruning methods for ramification on thuja foliage is "right on the money", for me, personally...

I pick branches based on the tree..

And I get REEEEEAL 'bendy" with stuff....



Wire is your friend.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I like my fellow Canadian Nigel . And I admit I am not aware what his Thuja pruning technique is . I admire his carefree exploratory learning attitude . And willingness to put it all on YouTube . But I have seen him ignore sound proven bonsai basics . There is nothing wrong with learning and expanding trying new things . But a baseline of sound understanding . In basic principles is necessary . I may be biased to a original teacher of mine . But I much prefer David Easterbrook . As a wealth of knowledge of north east trees . The best info on thuja that I am aware of is The late Nick Lenz book bonsai from the wild . Unfortunately it is out of print . And prices are getting crazy . ( mine was loaned and never returned ) Again there is a lot of knowledge on Hinoki cypress that transfer s to thuja .