Thoughts on Peter Chan? (Herons Bonsai)

rockm

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And one last thing about Peter Chan--He has stones, and I don't mean suiseki. I mean being bold and aggressive in his approach to making bonsai-which is probably why he crows about his successes (which doesn't bother me, he's not as bad as many lesser talents on the 'net).

He came up in bonsai in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, as people like Dan Robinson and Masahiko Kimura were using CHAIN SAWS to make bonsai. Think a snapped trunk can draw oohs and ahhs of concern? Think of the screams of "incompetence" "disrespect" and stronger came from bonsai folks who saw those guys take a chain saw to a tree to style it. Chan was mostly of the same era. His "gotta break some eggs" to make good bonsai approach was new back in the late 80's and early 90's. Same for Robinson and Kimura. The bonsai world worshipped the traditional Japanese approach at the time. That approach was stereotyped as "small tree" grown from seed with hidebound techniques and misplaced reverence for "zen."

I got Chan's books when there was no Internet and no real knowledgeable local resources. Seeing Chan reduce large field-grown trident maple, hornbeam, etc. with a chain saw and digging them out of his field with a small backhoe switched a light on for me that good, impressive bonsai are cut down from larger trees, not grown up from seed. That kind of thing wasn't discussed, or wasn't understood a lot by most bonsai folks at the time.

As I've gotten more experience in bonsai, Chan's trees have lost a bit of their luster as his refinement practices aren't as sharp as some. But I still give the guy credit for his willingness to do drastic work on stock to get good results (results that are impossible with little trees developing in pots)...
 

Grovic

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Fair enough, Boss. Clearly, Chan was very skilled in the past. Now his whole shtick is how fast he can do a tree, he takes great pride in taking a tree that has been neglected for 20 years and "restyling" it in 20 minutes. I know this, because he brags about it in literally every single styling video. His approach makes him a Charlatan to me *right now*. If he doesn't have the presence of mind, or care enough to do something properly at this point, then he is no longer what he used to be. This is not just one stray example, there are tons like it. I wouldn't fault the guy for breaking a branch once, shlt happens, but he makes a habit out of this crap and then beats his chest after
I guess everyone sees the world differently, you say the branch snapping happens often in his videos, maybe he's thinking: "This branch does not look good (too straight or whatever), I would prefer to keep it so I'm going to try an extreme bending, if it doesn't work I'll get rid of it, because otherwise it doesn't work."
 

Lorax7

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Chan is a charlatan of the highest order at this point, and it's his ego that is doing it to him. Clearly, he can run a successful business, but that's about it. Here's just one example video of what I'm talking about, which he has since edited to cut out the part where he broke the tree in half. I'm copy/pasting my comment from the video as well as the link. Every styling video he makes is a bragging session about how super speedy fast he is at styling trees, how he's the only one in the UK that gets called on to style xyz because there's no one that can do what he does, etc etc etc, followed by a video of him absolutely mutilating a tree. Anyway, here's the link and my comment for an explanation.
"I'm seeing a lot of comments on here from the “True Bonsai Artists™” praising Peter for this. This is bullshit, and if you can’t acknowledge that, you’re blind. He fu*cked this tree up royally, and it’s obvious from the noise he made when he snapped the damn tree in half, but then he just kept on going like it was nothing because he was doing it in front of a live audience, and then had the gall to post this abomination on YouTube. This was not intended in the least, and it was obvious from the stream of bullshit he was spewing after the moment of disaster. Everyone makes mistakes, I’ve seen some wonderful work from bonsai masters that will really chop a tree down but shape it for the future and I’ve seen others that let their ego get in the way and absolutely brutalize a tree. You don’t have to be a “True Bonsai” whatever to be able to see that this was a disaster... and it’s not his first time. There’s another video on here where he mutilated a tree live in front of an audience AND the owner of the tree. The guy was nice enough to grin and bear it, but it was obvious that he was not happy in the least."
 

Zerobear

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I used to frequent Peter when i got started
people say hes nearly a bonsai god
but others say he's an old newbie!
Thoughts?
-Blimp
I like that he says there is more than one way to do anything. He always shares helpful advice (Mark the front side so you will remember where it is. He shows several different ways to pot many of the projects he takes on. He shows the warts in his nursery. He is pleasant to watch at work. He is willing to tell you that $47.893.00 a [pound soil is not always needed. Negative? He puts too many trees in a group planting for me. Having watched maybe 100 of his videos, I'd give him an 8/10 rating. His Alberta spruce is one of my favorite tree projects. Those who think he lacks show bonsai skill should go watch one of the videos where he visits the Pater Chan walk at the Local Arboretum. As I understand he won best of show so many times, he stopped entering trees in competition.

Alberta Spruce 2021 08-2.JPG
 
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Zerobear

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I don't like to be critical of bonsai experts, as I know less than nothing when it comes to bonsai BUT I watch Peter Chan's videos and I can't find myself liking his styling. He seems to say "looks like a bonsai already" when its had 2 branches removed from nursery stock? Has anyone got any photos of refined trees by Peter Chan?

I think he is an amazing guy who is excellent at large scale pre bonsai nursery, but I don't take his styling advice that seriously. His love for bonsai is amazing.
 

colley614

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As someone who has only been studying bonsai for 2 years, I have watched a lot of both of their videos. I enjoy both their channels, though I could probably do with watching someone practising more sophisticated techniques now.

Peter's videos gave me the confidence to get stuck in and really have a go with my trees. Though, I must admit I don't recall seeing him do an actual bareroot repot.

My one criticism I can't get over is seeing him work trees that cost £5 at a nursery and then them being listed on his website for £125. I thought that was a bit much of a mark up.
 

parhamr

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I skipped over a few posts but it sounds like we are all universally in approval of Peter’s approach as a valid bit of instruction delivered in a digestible format with good entertainment value.
 

Shogun610

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I skipped over a few posts but it sounds like we are all universally in approval of Peter’s approach as a valid bit of instruction delivered in a digestible format with good entertainment value.
I have nothing to add as I am still digesting the F1 world championship final lap even though as a Red Bull fan, I fear it will forever taint his championship title.
 

Kokosunica

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Como novato que soy, Peter Chan me recuerda a un maestro de escuela. Sé que en el futuro necesitaré un profesor de secundaria y luego una universidad. pero por ahora, lo básico está bien
 

Mayank

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Como novato que soy, Peter Chan me recuerda a un maestro de escuela. Sé que en el futuro necesitaré un profesor de secundaria y luego una universidad. pero por ahora, lo básico está bien
I couldn't agree more. Well said!
 
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Como novato que soy, Peter Chan me recuerda a un maestro de escuela. Sé que en el futuro necesitaré un profesor de secundaria y luego una universidad. pero por ahora, lo básico está bien
Te recomendaria que participaras en ingles aunque no haya idioma "oficial" en el foro la inmensa mayoria son angloparlantes, y para que te puedan entender el resto facilmente y sin necesidad de traducir aunque sea ingles basico.
 

bluesky

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I met Peter Chan a couple of years ago, he showed me around the Herons nursery. For someone who has been focusing his life on a specialized business for the last 40 or so years, he is remarkably kind and open to interact with younger enthusiasts without judging or condescending. And very generous too.

Also, in running his business I think he sees the longer term picture: get more people hooked on the low-budget end and you'll have higher paying customers in the future. One thing that is really evident: he genuinely loves trees and bonsai. I guess we all do here... but we're not all doing it as a business for the last 40 years.

I'm sure Peter could spend hours or days on fine details and high-end refinement, but for video production that isn't good. As well as unappealing long videos, it makes for extremely fiddly video editing, believe me. I think his video model is to appeal to more beginners. Maybe he also thinks that showing videos of advanced techniques is like preaching to the converted...?
 

Kokosunica

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Te recomendaria que participaras en ingles aunque no haya idioma "oficial" en el foro la inmensa mayoria son angloparlantes, y para que te puedan entender el resto facilmente y sin necesidad de traducir aunque sea ingles basico.
sorry.
as the web translates me automatically.
I thought I had written in English
 

Zerobear

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Chan is a charlatan of the highest order at this point, and it's his ego that is doing it to him. Clearly, he can run a successful business, but that's about it. Here's just one example video of what I'm talking about, which he has since edited to cut out the part where he broke the tree in half. I'm copy/pasting my comment from the video as well as the link. Every styling video he makes is a bragging session about how super speedy fast he is at styling trees, how he's the only one in the UK that gets called on to style xyz because there's no one that can do what he does, etc etc etc, followed by a video of him absolutely mutilating a tree. Anyway, here's the link and my comment for an explanation.
"I'm seeing a lot of comments on here from the “True Bonsai Artists™” praising Peter for this. This is bullshit, and if you can’t acknowledge that, you’re blind. He fu*cked this tree up royally, and it’s obvious from the noise he made when he snapped the damn tree in half, but then he just kept on going like it was nothing because he was doing it in front of a live audience, and then had the gall to post this abomination on YouTube. This was not intended in the least, and it was obvious from the stream of bullshit he was spewing after the moment of disaster. Everyone makes mistakes, I’ve seen some wonderful work from bonsai masters that will really chop a tree down but shape it for the future and I’ve seen others that let their ego get in the way and absolutely brutalize a tree. You don’t have to be a “True Bonsai” whatever to be able to see that this was a disaster... and it’s not his first time. There’s another video on here where he mutilated a tree live in front of an audience AND the owner of the tree. The guy was nice enough to grin and bear it, but it was obvious that he was not happy in the least."
After reading this post and some of the response, I would like to offer a few comments regarding this specific project and Chan's actions.

1. This was an older tree (20 years, or so), brought to Chan for restyling. (Learned in the First minute or two of the video). The customer had attempted to make a cascade and had failed. I can't believe most here would consider the original tree as any kind of success. Typical successful bonsais usually have a defined Nabari, well defined trunk structure, a good "front" with visual interest, movement in the trunk to help give the appearance of age and a defined shape in the foliage. Any customer bringing a bonsai to Peter Chan likely knows he usually designs trees with a triangular shape in the foliage. Also, he has said hundreds of times that he does not like jins.

2. Back to what he was given as starter material - Basically he had a tree with age and a good pot. Work had been completed on carving of the trunk, and since it was there, he needed to accentuate the carving, rather than ignore or hide it. The cascade was horrible, in that a large segment of the trunk was absolutely horizonal, terminating in multiple (3?) forks from a single point in the main trunk. From a classic design point, this is a huge no-no. The tree was healthy, but the foliage was much too thick.

3. What he had as starter material left him with few options. He knew he had to do something with the 3 limbs coming off the trunk. He knew he had to include the lower trunk carving in the final design. He liked the nebari, but not much else and he knew drastic work was needed if the tree would ever become a suitable specimen. I think a loose restatement of his words were that he had been given a 20 year old "Bush in a nice pot" to redesign/improve.

4. My opinion was that Drastic Changes ad to be made to the tree. They would be changes that altered the tree for several years before there would be any way to call it a worthy bonsai IMO, that is a shame, because 20 years had been invested in the tree, with almost nothing accomplished, other than a failed attempt to make a semi-cascade bonsai. That had to be the original intent of the owner, because of the pot they chose. Many of us try and fail. That goes with the desire to make bonsai.

5. After visually examining the tree, I believe Peter, knew it would never be a semi-cascade, but he was willing to give it a shot, and in his words, he was willing to crack the main trunk in order to attempt bending it into some sort of cascade shape. I think he knew this would not work, but doing it was a chance to instruct by taking his saw and showing the trunk could be cracked by making a small saw cut on the top side and then breaking some of the fibers to pull the trunk down. He did say that was what he was going to do. It was his stated desire to "crack the trunk (and bend it)" to see if enough motion could be achieved to make a semi-cascade. This was good instruction, because we got a chance to watch him do it, but I believe he knew it was not what he wanted, because more than once, he had shown the horizonal trunk section and stated it was a horrible design element and would never work on the bonsai.

6. With this shown, he led us through the decision process that eliminated most other considerations to take advantage of the only real front view and the one good feature, which was the lower trunk and the possibility of eventually adding trunk movement. That possibility would only come through removing the long horizonal section that terminated in 3 limbs from a common point and a poor semi-cascade feature. Knowing this, he cut and broke away many years of trunk growth and set up a new Apex limb. To do this, he walked away from the semi-cascade design of the original tree and the "Nice pot".

7. Pretty quickly, he reshaped the tree, made obvious improvement in the truck movement, and started the tree on a journey toward a new apex. I can't quote statements he made, but in my mind, I knew he understood he was adding another few years to any hope of having a better tree. In his mind, that was acceptable, because the original design (semi-cascade) was never going to work. He ended his demonstration by saying more wiring would be needed and more work, that he would not attempt because of the massive changes he had already made to the tree. Finally, he chose a temporary pot that he said would not be the permanent home for the tree.

8. I could tell he was not happy with the tree, but I knew he had done the best possible things to make the tree better at some future date. Then he said something that clarified several things to me. He said basically that "Someone would buy the tree". The unspoken thing from the first was that his customer - the one who brought him the tree for restyling, No longer owned the tree before Peter began his attempts to change the design into something he had any chance of eventually making into something he could sell.

This was long, but I thought Peter actions could use another opinion. Thanks for reading this.
 
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chicago1980

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Peter has thick skin. Master level.
 
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