Thoughts on Peter Chan? (Herons Bonsai)

[Lorax7]

I have a BFA in fine art, and I think what he may be saying is Bob Ross was a lousy painter. But incredibly lovable, someone I'd want as a neighbor or a friend..A genuinely wonderful human being.

But Bob Ross wasn’t a lousy painter. His technical execution with oils was on point. He’s widely respected among professional artists as a teacher who shared valuable, well-presented information about painting technique and composition and nurtured his viewers to find their own creative voices. Are we going hang his paintings in the Met next to a Cézanne? No, because his paintings are very conventional and they don’t have the kind of unique vision and impact that we expect of great art. But that doesn’t make him a bad painter. His goal was always pedagogy, not trying to break new ground and realize some sublime avant-garde style that knocks your socks off and makes you totally rethink the aesthetics of landscape painting. But, in terms of his technical command of oil paint as a medium of expression, Bob Ross absolutely had the chops.

 

[Carol 83]

But Bob Ross wasn’t a lousy painter. His technical execution with oils was on point. He’s widely respected among professional artists as a teacher who shared valuable, well-presented information about painting technique and composition and nurtured his viewers to find their own creative voices. Are we going hang his paintings in the Met next to a Cézanne? No, because his paintings are very conventional and they don’t have the kind of unique vision and impact that we expect of great art. But that doesn’t make him a bad painter. His goal was always pedagogy, not trying to break new ground and realize some sublime avant-garde style that knocks your socks off and makes you totally rethink the aesthetics of landscape painting. But, in terms of his technical command of oil paint as a medium of expression, Bob Ross absolutely had the chops.

I used to watch his show on PBS with my Grandma, good times.

 

[Ugo]

I defenately enjoyed seeing Bob Ross painting "each" afternoon if I remeber well when I was a kid. For me it was pure magic (it is still)

I found a little bit of the same magic in Mr. Chan videos.
Im still a beginner but when I first started I was looking at bonsai videos that were way too advanced for me showing professionals working on trained trees that already had very fine ramification.
Peter Chan is the one who made me realize the connection between my trees in first and second tier ramification to the more refined trees I was seeing.
As a beginner I just couldn't realize how my stick in a pot trees could be worked to look like a bonsai.
Seeing him working on trees under developement showed me guidelines on how to make major cuts, choosing the front of a tree, why keeping or removing major branches and more.

I can says I dont like the way he manipulate the trees as Im not working so roughly with mine, but it made me also realize that if his trees can handle it I guess mine will be perfectly okay as I take extra care when working on my few trees.
The work he does in 5mins will take me 30 but as I heard him said a few times Bonsai is not a race its just the way he like to work.

I personally thank him for sharing knowledge and love for bonsai.

 

[John P.]

Is he as technical as Bjorn or Ryan? No, probably not. But his passion is palpable, and I appreciate his videos and love for what he does. Haters gonna hate.

 

[qwerty Bonsai]

Bjorn or Ryan are both bonsai artists strictly follow the Japanese bonsai doctrine.
While Peter, though also follows Japanese bonsai theory, but not as strictly.
The other day I just read a several-year-old thread about bonsai vs penjing. I think Bjorn/Ryan vs Peter is good demonstration of bonsai vs penjing.

Who's better? Hard to say. No set standard. But I would say whoever has better products is (Same as for painting artists).

 

[hinmo24t]

do you think over the long spanning career of peter (50 years + ?)
he was like the younger master-baters some of you subscribe to, and possibly paved/paralleled techniques for them? perhaps when he was preparing trees for published books on the art, multiple publications?

my opinion: times change and i dont think its even an argument. i peter could run circles around the others if he wanted to now, like he did decades ago...he chooses (and earned the ability to) project what he wants to now


have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone

 

[hinmo24t]

^also, you have every right to your opinion and choosing who you wish to appreciate more/less
who to MB to

 

[keri-wms]

I feel that at the very least we should look at the trees to judge how effective any methods are, and I mean ones they have themselves created. Not imported. Applied to everyone to make it fair.

 

[Lorax7]

I feel that at the very least we should look at the trees to judge how effective any methods are, and I mean ones they have themselves created. Not imported. Applied to everyone to make it fair.

I don’t think there’s any reason to exclude imported trees from consideration, providing that they have been under that person’s care for several years. It takes as much skill to maintain a refined design over time as it does to style raw material.

 

[Scrogdor]

I used to frequent Peter when i got started
people say hes nearly a bonsai god
but others say he's an old newbie!
Thoughts?
-Blimp

Watching his videos gives definitely helped guide me into the world of bonsai. Love his videos and his passion for the art.

 

[Chopsie]

I visited yesterday
Disappointed
Trees in bad shape with extreme price tags!
I won’t be wasting my time going back.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I feel that at the very least we should look at the trees to judge how effective any methods are, and I mean ones they have themselves created. Not imported. Applied to everyone to make it fair.

Thats something I like about Peter a lot of his trees are seedlings hes benn training for decades or the field grown trees, he creates bonsai fromn sratch

 

[itisoktodance]

But Bob Ross wasn’t a lousy painter. His technical execution with oils was on point. He’s widely respected among professional artists as a teacher who shared valuable, well-presented information about painting technique and composition and nurtured his viewers to find their own creative voices. Are we going hang his paintings in the Met next to a Cézanne? No, because his paintings are very conventional and they don’t have the kind of unique vision and impact that we expect of great art. But that doesn’t make him a bad painter. His goal was always pedagogy, not trying to break new ground and realize some sublime avant-garde style that knocks your socks off and makes you totally rethink the aesthetics of landscape painting. But, in terms of his technical command of oil paint as a medium of expression, Bob Ross absolutely had the chops.

I mean, there really are no two ways about it, Bob Ross is technically not well skilled. He does paintings like you'd find in a thrift store. Just hobbyist level. But he gets people into painting, which is where is significance lies.

And I think that's where people draw the parallel between him and Peter. Peter does very commercial bonsai, those ugly S shapes you see everywhere. He does have some good specimens, but obviously nothing worthy of Kokufu. But he gets people into bonsai because he makes it seem so approachable. He demystifies it so regular folks can stop being scared and maybe actually try to take care of one.

 

[Lorax7]

I mean, there really are no two ways about it, Bob Ross is technically not well skilled. He does paintings like you'd find in a thrift store. Just hobbyist level. But he gets people into painting, which is where is significance lies.

Are you a painter? I’m dying to hear your explanation of exactly what you think is wrong with Bob’s technique. Not just a vague, wishy-washy, “Oh, I don’t really like his style, blah, blah, blah”, but actually specific points about how he was doing it wrong with respect to application of oil paint, creating color harmony, composition, perspective, etc.

 

[leatherback]

Peter does very commercial bonsai, those ugly S shapes you see everywhere. He does have some good specimens, but obviously nothing worthy of Kokufu.

Yes, ugly S-Shapes.







I feel this discussion is a little unfair. He is clearly skilled in building trees. He however also knows that fully styles trees at a top premium sell less than pre-bonsai stock. It is exactly the same at the nursery I frequent: When learning / gaining experience on their nursery stock, we are asked to NOT clean up the tree, but just remove things that are about to become problems. The customers want trees to work on, not something where the main styling choices have been made, is the line of thought.

 

[Lorax7]

I feel this discussion is a little unfair. He is clearly skilled in building trees. He however also knows that fully styles trees at a top premium sell less than pre-bonsai stock. It is exactly the same at the nursery I frequent: When learning / gaining experience on their nursery stock, we are asked to NOT clean up the tree, but just remove things that are about to become problems. The customers want trees to work on, not something where the main styling choices have been made, is the line of thought.

Yep, and Peter has stated this in his YouTube videos many times. He’ll specifically point out that he could do some task such as branch selection here and here, but that he’s leaving that undone because one customer might want to keep this branch and move it around to this side but another customer might want to keep this other branch here instead and move it over here instead and he feels like his customers want to buy trees that have some flexibility in the different choices that they can make on their own.

 

[qwerty Bonsai]

1. As bonsai "master" who "teaches" bonsai online, comparing Peter with Ryan, I would say both are great, differences are in their different teaching styles, both are great, however, someone may find one particular style more preferable than the other.
2. S shape is like GED, to many people GED might be the end degree they will ever pursue. Many people may just satisfied with being able to make s shape "bonsai", and no more.
3. Peter does have premium bonsai items, as already shown by @leatherback earlier.
4. Bonsai as art product, for those high end items, comparing and determining which one is better it's almost mission impossible. People paid 119.9 million for "the scream", others may think it's just crazy.

I liked Peter's videos a lot, now I like Ryan's video better in some way. However, I find myself fast forwarding some times.

Peter talked/did/showed a lot s shape "bonsai" , it does not mean he can only do s shape. This is obvious, but sometimes it's so obvious that one may forget.

 

[Cajunrider]

I think Peter Chan is a legitimate bonsai master who chooses to work with bonsai enthusiasts on the lower end of beginner to intermediate. His business model and his practice reflects this decision. Catering to the lower end means bigger volume. Everything he does shows exactly that. Very quick decision, very quick work done to the minimum required to achieve the purpose. Has his quick work killed some trees? Yes but then he has grown tens of thousands of trees. Is he capable of doing superior work? Yes and he has shown that in the past. Right now he is happy doing the work on the lower end.

I like Peter Chan and appreciate his videos. I also can see that as old as Peter is, he practice is often limited to the science common to his time when he was in prime. I am trying to move from beginner to intermediate and beyond. My journey won't stop after seeing Peter Chen videos. Yet I like them still for what they are.

 

[HankDio]

Being an artist can be difficult, but going from artist to businessman is the worst. The in-group jeers that you are a sellout for marketing to the Lowest Common Denominator (ex. S-Shaped pre-bonsai) yet meanwhile the bonsai artist in Peter Chan has demonstrated impressive knowledge regarding the trees. Look at it another way: In Japan these Moyogi Japanese Black and 5-Needle Pines are the bread and butter. If I were to use profanity I would call them "cookie-cutter". I recall listening to Ryan Neil discussing that pines and other evergreens were the bulk of the business, most of the customers either wanted a developed and trained Moyogi-style pine or similarly styled evergreen. That isn't to sat that Ryan didn't see deciduous trees, he saw a lot. But that wasn't the commercial focus, it was the artistic end of things. Both are necessary when your artistic ends become your economic means. In bonsai WE ought to choose to do the things WE want to do, but when you decide to make your hobby your job it stops being about you and the focus is shifted to the customer.

"The customer is always right" is an expression that seems to exist at-odds with "artistic liberty" but that is utter garbage. You can do both should you choose. Regarding Perter Chan's competence: Results speak for themselves

 

[Cajunrider]

Being an artist can be difficult, but going from artist to businessman is the worst. The in-group jeers that you are a sellout for marketing to the Lowest Common Denominator (ex. S-Shaped pre-bonsai) yet meanwhile the bonsai artist in Peter Chan has demonstrated impressive knowledge regarding the trees. Look at it another way: In Japan these Moyogi Japanese Black and 5-Needle Pines are the bread and butter. If I were to use profanity I would call them "cookie-cutter". I recall listening to Ryan Neil discussing that pines and other evergreens were the bulk of the business, most of the customers either wanted a developed and trained Moyogi-style pine or similarly styled evergreen. That isn't to sat that Ryan didn't see deciduous trees, he saw a lot. But that wasn't the commercial focus, it was the artistic end of things. Both are necessary when your artistic ends become your economic means. In bonsai WE ought to choose to do the things WE want to do, but when you decide to make your hobby your job it stops being about you and the focus is shifted to the customer.

"The customer is always right" is an expression that seems to exist at-odds with "artistic liberty" but that is utter garbage. You can do both should you choose. Regarding Perter Chan's competence: Results speak for themselves

I see nothing wrong with going from artist to businessman. Peter Chan makes an honest living growing trees for beginners. Some of the post above shows excellent trees he has created as an artist. His website show thousands of trees he has grown as a businessman. There is nothing wrong with it as far as I can see. Sure some of his trees may be pricier than others but then that is part of his popularity. He cannot sell at a higher price than the market will bear.