Thoughts on "Nursery to Bonsai" in one sitting

[czaczaja]

I have recently been watching a lot of the Nursery stock to Bonsai 'makeovers' where the tree is significantly pruned, often bare rooted and repotted with simultaneous root pruning. All done by reputable and experienced professionals.

I am curious to see what people think about such heavy projects, which seem to be breaking all possible tree maintenance rules such as 'never prune repot at the same time', 'never prune more than 20% foliage at one time' and the list goes on.

Taking things from that point of view, those trees have no chance of survival yet they live and do well.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Some trees lend themselves to this type of work more than others, I am yet to see a convincing deciduous bonsai made in such a way.

I guess it also depends on your definition of 'do well' and 'bonsai'

I watched a lot of these videos when I started and to me, at that time, they were creating 'instant bonsai' however I realise now that the trees I worked in such a way and even the trees the professionals worked in the videos are only an image of bonsai and all of my early material has been given space and time to grow a lot more to develop and grow considerable amounts.

true bonsai takes time, you can't cheat ramification or taper.

You can also take much greater risks with cheap material and if it dies it dies, would you consider that same work on a 20K imported jwp as a 2 euro juniper whip?

Also not to mention the pros can often provide necessary aftercare to ensure the tree at least survives

I'll end with my favourite Peter Chan quote 'to many people, that MAY LOOK LIKE a convincing bonsai already'

 

[Dabbler]

depends on the species and how brave you are(knowledgeable too).I have a dwarf spruce and a bunch of other spruce that a few I got from Nursery stock and pruned 50% of the foliage in the dead of winter when they aren't pushing sap. Then, that spring, they were repotted. They are all are doing fine. I would never do this with some of my very old tree's but "nursery stock" - have a go and learn the species.

 

[czaczaja]

Some trees lend themselves to this type of work more than others, I am yet to see a convincing deciduous bonsai made in such a way.

I guess it also depends on your definition of 'do well' and 'bonsai'

I watched a lot of these videos when I started and to me, at that time, they were creating 'instant bonsai' however I realise now that the trees I worked in such a way and even the trees the professionals worked in the videos are only an image of bonsai and all of my early material has been given space and time to grow a lot more to develop and grow considerable amounts.

true bonsai takes time, you can't cheat ramification or taper.

You can also take much greater risks with cheap material and if it dies it dies, would you consider that same work on a 20K imported jwp as a 2 euro juniper whip?

Also not to mention the pros can often provide necessary aftercare to ensure the tree at least survives

I'll end with my favourite Peter Chan quote 'to many people, that MAY LOOK LIKE a convincing bonsai already'

Yes completely agree. My main point was how do they get away with all this 'abuse' done in one go without killing the tree.
I guess it all comes down to your knowledge and skill.

 

[Sixty’s]

I have recently been watching a lot of the Nursery stock to Bonsai 'makeovers' where the tree is significantly pruned, often bare rooted and repotted with simultaneous root pruning. All done by reputable and experienced professionals.

I am curious to see what people think about such heavy projects, which seem to be breaking all possible tree maintenance rules such as 'never prune repot at the same time', 'never prune more than 20% foliage at one time' and the list goes on.

Taking things from that point of view, those trees have no chance of survival yet they live and do well.

I guess the type of tree involved in those videos and the health of the tree can make a difference on how much you can get away with safely.
Surely they won’t be doing this with pines and juniper.

 

[lieuz]

Yes completely agree. My main point was how do they get away with all this 'abuse' done in one go without killing the tree.
I guess it all comes down to your knowledge and skill.

As others have stated before, it's dependent on the species. Tropicals can take a serious beating and they bounce right back. Conifers are another that would fit more along the lines of fairly instant-able bonsai. I think it's important to note that these trees are probably extremely healthy and can take abuse. However, I draw the line about repotting. For me, it's an either-or and if you do one you do less of the other. However, if your job is to only care for trees, then aftercare is the secret. I've seen some of the riskiest things done and they live because they have the attention and the ability to provide the much-needed aftercare for their more sensitive projects.

 

[czaczaja]

I guess the type of tree involved in those videos and the health of the tree can make a difference on how much you can get away with safely.
Surely they won’t be doing this with pines and juniper.

I've actually only seen them doing it with conifers and junipers

Some notable ones:

 

[Sixty’s]

I've actually only seen them doing it with conifers and junipers

Some notable ones:

I don’t see nothing wrong with the above links, the juniper is only being styled, the cedrus only having a light tease to the roots and the picea can be both repotted and styled in late autumn.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I have recently been watching a lot of the Nursery stock to Bonsai 'makeovers' where the tree is significantly pruned, often bare rooted and repotted with simultaneous root pruning. All done by reputable and experienced professionals.

I am curious to see what people think about such heavy projects, which seem to be breaking all possible tree maintenance rules such as 'never prune repot at the same time', 'never prune more than 20% foliage at one time' and the list goes on.

Taking things from that point of view, those trees have no chance of survival yet they live and do well.

It very much depends on the tree and on the extent of the work. I regularly will repot, chop and root prune various deciduous trees in one go - provided they are healthy, this is generally not an issue. I have definitely removed more than 20% of foliage - at times I've removed 100%. With a trident maple, for example, this type of heavy work isn't a problem - they can really take a beating. I would not, however, try this with a pine.

I've seen videos where folks rip trees apart and do all kinds of really heavy bending to transform nursery stock into more of a bonsai - not sure if these trees actually make it and never did a follow up to see if they did. They may very well have died from the work.

 

[Paradox]

As others said, it depends on the species of tree and what you are starting with regarding the tree itself (how much work it needs to make it an instant bonsai).

In most cases, instant bonsai = dead tree because what is done to it is just too much at once.

 

[0soyoung]

Indeed, it does depend, but considering a few fundamentals will remove a lot of the mystery.

1. Root growth is stimulated by auxin which is produced by leaves and buds (above).
2. Auxin is consumed (above) when new growth is extending
3. Transpiration is a fundamental process of tree life. Water and essential minerals are taken in by the roots (actually hair root which are the extensions of the walls of individual cells at root tips that are removed by root pruning) and drawn up the tree by evaporation from the leaves. The rate of transport is controlled by the leaf stomata, but leaves without a waxy coating (such as maple leaves) also pass significant amounts of water through the leaf surfaces.
4. New growth extends/elongates and leaves 'harden' by water being adsorbed into the vacuoles of new cells (inflating them like water balloons) before the coils of cellulose cross-link to fix the size of the cell walls.
5. Newly hardened foliage produces lots of carbohydrates and auxin - this declines with age (and the lack of sunlight, etc.).

 

[leatherback]

The advice to not do all these things is to ensure a smooth ride. If you have no idea what you are doing, you are going to put more strain on the trees you are working than someone who has experience, which is part of the key. Teaching people how to do bonsai, includes showing the least stressful route / the most certain way of working.

'never prune repot at the same time', 'never prune more than 20% foliage at one time'

I think neither advice is good advice to be honest. I ALWAYS prune and repot at the same time.
If I am repotting, the tree gets pruned and wired. Initial styling of evergreens for me often is in mid-winter, and I might hold off on repotting till warmer temperatures arrive, which would dictate a temporal separation. But.. I would not hesitate to do it at the same time.
Key here is.. What are you pruning (Removing all growing tips/visible buds from a plant is a lot of stress and requires a big investment from the tree, doing this without roots is going to lead to a difficult few months. But pruning back to healthy side-branches is a very different story..

The next part of the story is.. They work on very healthy plants. Healthy plants can handle A LOT. MUCH more than some people will make you believe.

I routinely do loads of work at the same time. For my videos I try to split it up over several months, as I do not want to demonstrate non-accepted practices. That does not mean it cannot be done.

Finally, you need to know your species and climate. That helps you understand what can and cannot be done.

Yesterday, routine work on my field-grown stock plants, which will not even break stride and will push as normal in spring. This is a gentle pruning in my garden

dug from the field::



Prunes branches, roots, and back into the field for the last year:

 

[czaczaja]

The advice to not do all these things is to ensure a smooth ride. If you have no idea what you are doing, you are going to put more strain on the trees you are working than someone who has experience, which is part of the key. Teaching people how to do bonsai, includes showing the least stressful route / the most certain way of working.


I think neither advice is good advice to be honest. I ALWAYS prune and repot at the same time.
If I am repotting, the tree gets pruned and wired. Initial styling of evergreens for me often is in mid-winter, and I might hold off on repotting till warmer temperatures arrive, which would dictate a temporal separation. But.. I would not hesitate to do it at the same time.
Key here is.. What are you pruning (Removing all growing tips/visible buds from a plant is a lot of stress and requires a big investment from the tree, doing this without roots is going to lead to a difficult few months. But pruning back to healthy side-branches is a very different story..

The next part of the story is.. They work on very healthy plants. Healthy plants can handle A LOT. MUCH more than some people will make you believe.

I routinely do loads of work at the same time. For my videos I try to split it up over several months, as I do not want to demonstrate non-accepted practices. That does not mean it cannot be done.

Finally, you need to know your species and climate. That helps you understand what can and cannot be done.

Yesterday, routine work on my field-grown stock plants, which will not even break stride and will push as normal in spring. This is a gentle pruning in my garden

dug from the field::
View attachment 523201


Prunes branches, roots, and back into the field for the last year:
View attachment 523202

This is actually a perfect example of what I want to do with my 5 spruces this week:

Would you consider that a hard prune or is it a typical thing you'd do?
I got 5 young trees on a christmas sale, they're in tiny pots and I'd like to get them wired and cleaned up before the next growing season.

 

[leatherback]

Would you consider that a hard prune or is it a typical thing you'd do?

This is a normal proces. Do note: Repotting is MONTHS later than styling, as can be seen by the fresh green at the branch tips.

 

[czaczaja]

This is a normal proces. Do note: Repotting is MONTHS later than styling, as can be seen by the fresh green at the branch tips.

Ok I'll take that into consideration. I need to make my mind up if I want to clean up or repot first. I want to get them into bigger pots as they are rather root bound but also want to clean up and wire the branches ASAP to get them growing in the right direction. Especially that spruce needs several wirings to set the shape.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I have lost more trees moving them from nursery soil into bonsai soil than through any other cause. Once established in good bonsai soil, I think trees can handle significant repotting abuse, and clearing out granular bonsai soil from tree roots is much less stressful than when you try this same action with nursery trees that are root-bound in organic soil.

I personally think that many of these "instant bonsai" videos result in "instantly dead bonsai" LOL. But certainly not all do. Depends on the tree, the species, the kind of work, the time of year, etc.

 

[Sixty’s]

Ok I'll take that into consideration. I need to make my mind up if I want to clean up or repot first. I want to get them into bigger pots as they are rather root bound but also want to clean up and wire the branches ASAP to get them growing in the right direction. Especially that spruce needs several wirings to set the shape.

The following video from the one you shared should help with your decision, in this one he has the same tree and another tree that was styled at the same time although one didn’t had any root work done.

 

[Cajunrider]

I have lost more trees moving them from nursery soil into bonsai soil than through any other cause. Once established in good bonsai soil, I think trees can handle significant repotting abuse, and clearing out granular bonsai soil from tree roots is much less stressful that when you try this same action with nursery trees that are root-bound in organic soil.

I personally think that many of these "instant bonsai" videos result in "instantly dead bonsai" LOL. But certainly not all do. Depends on the tree, the species, the kind of work, the time of year, etc.

I have seen my fair share of attempts in making instant bonsai that resulted in dead trees. The only thing was that the owners of such dead trees simply don't know they are dead yet.

 

[leatherback]

The following video from the one you shared should help with your decision

Lets complete the series then.. .

Initial styling:

Spring Prune:

Sixty seconds styling:

Second year update:

many of these "instant bonsai" videos result in "instantly dead bonsai" LOL. But certainly not all do.

Glad this one is not!

 

[Sixty’s]

Lets complete the series then.. .

Initial styling:

Spring Prune:

Sixty seconds styling:

Second year update:

Glad this one is not!

Just for clarity, I’ve shared your second following video in relation to repotting or not repotting the tree at the same time, as the OP is not sure on what to do, believing that such work can kill this trees (picea), I have mentioned before in the thread that I’m in support that both can be done (late autumn to early winter) as you mentioned in the video the difference will be that the tree will take longer to respond if root work is involved although they will catch up as the roots develop.