The year of the pine. Mihai's new obsession

[Mihai]

Hello @Adair M . That's some super helpful feedback right there. Thanks a lot for taking the time.
This is what happens when you have no access to any live training and go by online sources alone.
Thanks again!

 

[Adair M]

Hello @Adair M . That's some super helpful feedback right there. Thanks a lot for taking the time.
This is what happens when you have no access to any live training and go by online sources alone.
Thanks again!

I go more in depth in a thread in an “advanced” forum topic on this site. I think the easiest way to find it is search on threads with “Adair M” as the author, and with “fishhooks” in the title.

 

[Mihai]

I go more in depth in a thread in an “advanced” forum topic on this site. I think the easiest way to find it is search on threads with “Adair M” as the author, and with “fishhooks” in the title.

I'm on it .
This is the top view.

 

[LanceMac10]

I see that you are turning the tips up. That’s a common mistake with people new to pines. You should style with the tips pointed out, maybe just a touch above horizontal.


View attachment 253625

In the picture above, you can see I’ve wired out to the tips, which are layer out flat. With the end of the wire, I have created a little hook that supports the needles that otherwise would be hanging down. The hook can actually extend a bit beyond the actual tip as it’s supporting the needles.

Here’s how it looks from above:

View attachment 253624

See? The tips aren’t turned up, they point “out”.

What is the thought process behind wiring "flatter" as opposed to a more upward position?

 

[Adair M]

I'm on it .
This is the top view.
View attachment 253629

Tighten up your angles. That is, you have primary branches coming off the trunk, right? The secondary branches coming off the primaries should make about a 30 to 45 degree angle off the primary branch.

See:

Doing this will keep the tips moving “out”, away from the trunk. And the overall outside profile of the branch will be more or less triangular. (Rather than rounded). And, it keeps you from having any branches turning inward, back towards the trunk, which is a major fault.

See this diagram:

Here, the tips (and branches) are not properly set.



Tips are going every which way, some even backwards towards the trunk.

After wiring and placement:



The tips are all pointed out, there’s no crosses branches, each tip has its own space. The tips on the interior, are wired to be a little higher that the ones on the perimeter. They provide “height” to the pad. It’s a layering effect. The upper drawing shows the layering.

Those interior twigs providing the “height”, will someday become the primary branch, so it’s important to train them well. You see, the branch will eventually grow too long for the design, and will have to be cut back. Those upper secondaries can be used as replacement primaries. This repeats over, and over. So, always strive to develop new interior branches for the long run sustainability of the bonsai.

Everyone on this site is so focused on the “creation” of bonsai, they don’t think about the long term maintenance and sustainability if the tree. I have had many people criticize this tree:



As being a “green helmet”. It’s not! Yes, it’s full of foliage, but not just around the circumference. It’s comprised of layered pads with foliage going all the way back into the interior. Its not hollow. And because of that, it’s sustainable.

 

[Adair M]

What is the thought process behind wiring "flatter" as opposed to a more upward position?

New growth grows up. Naturally. We don’t have to train it to do that.

Find my “fishhooks” thread. You will see the whole tree where the tree grew “ up” after wiring. What we have to do is keep the tree “styled”, but in a way it looks “natural”.

In nature, the branches and pads are larger, and the weight of the wood and foliage tends to keep the pads growing “out” rather than “up”. On the miniaturized scale of bonsai, we have to use wire to mimic the effect of that weight.

 

[LanceMac10]

Thank you for the rapid response.

 

[Mihai]

Tighten up your angles. That is, you have primary branches coming off the trunk, right? The secondary branches coming off the primaries should make about a 30 to 45 degree angle off the primary branch.

See:

View attachment 253631Doing this will keep the tips moving “out”, away from the trunk. And the overall outside profile of the branch will be more or less triangular. (Rather than rounded). And, it keeps you from having any branches turning inward, back towards the trunk, which is a major fault.

See this diagram:

Here, the tips (and branches) are not properly set.

View attachment 253633

Tips are going every which way, some even backwards towards the trunk.

After wiring and placement:

View attachment 253632

The tips are all pointed out, there’s no crosses branches, each tip has its own space. The tips on the interior, are wired to be a little higher that the ones on the perimeter. They provide “height” to the pad. It’s a layering effect. The upper drawing shows the layering.

Those interior twigs providing the “height”, will someday become the primary branch, so it’s important to train them well. You see, the branch will eventually grow too long for the design, and will have to be cut back. Those upper secondaries can be used as replacement primaries. This repeats over, and over. So, always strive to develop new interior branches for the long run sustainability of the bonsai.

Everyone on this site is so focused on the “creation” of bonsai, they don’t think about the long term maintenance and sustainability if the tree. I have had many people criticize this tree:

View attachment 253645

As being a “green helmet”. It’s not! Yes, it’s full of foliage, but not just around the circumference. It’s comprised of layered pads with foliage going all the way back into the interior. Its not hollow. And because of that, it’s sustainable.

This is basically the first branch of the tree. This is as acute as i can make it without squishing everyting together.
I was afraid to wire the super young branches so there are things sticking out of profile.


This is a branch on another pine i did this year. A lot cleaner methinks.


Found the fishhook thread. Thanks a lot!

 

[Adair M]

This is basically the first branch of the tree. This is as acute as i can make it without squishing everyting together.
I was afraid to wire the super young branches so there are things sticking out of profile.
View attachment 253674

This is a branch on another pine i did this year. A lot cleaner methinks.
View attachment 253675

Found the fishhook thread. Thanks a lot!

That top picture is much better!

On the second picture, you see the first branch on the left? That wire is much too small to be effective. And it’s wired wrong. You have the wire running in between the crotch. It has no holding power that way. The wire should always go
Around the outsides.

See this diagram:



Look at Fig 3. The wire loops around the outside.

When there’s other wire, it takes a bit of planning to match it up!

See Fig 15:



If you can master Fig 15, you’ve mastered wiring!

Here’s an example Kimura did using different colored wire to make it easy to follow:

 

[PiñonJ]

I see that you are turning the tips up. That’s a common mistake with people new to pines. You should style with the tips pointed out, maybe just a touch above horizontal.

I would add a caveat to that. The finer the branches and foliage (e.g. JRP), the more you can drop the pads and turn the tips up. As an example, here’s a Lodgepole (collected by @Arcto ) that I styled at Mirai in June. When I was done, I thought I had the tips at a good angle, then Ryan came along and turned them all up more (and, of course improved on the styling in general). It gives the tree a more feminine and elegant look.

 

[Adair M]

I would add a caveat to that. The finer the branches and foliage (e.g. JRP), the more you can drop the pads and turn the tips up. As an example, here’s a Lodgepole (collected by @Arcto ) that I styled at Mirai in June. When I was done, I thought I had the tips at a good angle, then Ryan came along and turned them all up more (and, of course improved on the styling in general). It gives the tree a more feminine and elegant look.
View attachment 253682

Yes, you have them slightly up. But not straight up.

JRP are weaker than JBP, and when you drop the branches severely like that, it further weakens them. Turning the tips up slightly gives them back a bit of strength. The same would be true on a JWP, too.

 

[0soyoung]

I would add a caveat to that. The finer the branches and foliage (e.g. JRP), the more you can drop the pads and turn the tips up. As an example, here’s a Lodgepole (collected by @Arcto ) that I styled at Mirai in June. When I was done, I thought I had the tips at a good angle, then Ryan came along and turned them all up more (and, of course improved on the styling in general). It gives the tree a more feminine and elegant look.
View attachment 253682

I like that tree. Loopy, different, and very interesting

 

[Tycoss]

I have

Tighten up your angles. That is, you have primary branches coming off the trunk, right? The secondary branches coming off the primaries should make about a 30 to 45 degree angle off the primary branch.

See:

View attachment 253631Doing this will keep the tips moving “out”, away from the trunk. And the overall outside profile of the branch will be more or less triangular. (Rather than rounded). And, it keeps you from having any branches turning inward, back towards the trunk, which is a major fault.

See this diagram:

Here, the tips (and branches) are not properly set.

View attachment 253633

Tips are going every which way, some even backwards towards the trunk.

After wiring and placement:

View attachment 253632

The tips are all pointed out, there’s no crosses branches, each tip has its own space. The tips on the interior, are wired to be a little higher that the ones on the perimeter. They provide “height” to the pad. It’s a layering effect. The upper drawing shows the layering.

Those interior twigs providing the “height”, will someday become the primary branch, so it’s important to train them well. You see, the branch will eventually grow too long for the design, and will have to be cut back. Those upper secondaries can be used as replacement primaries. This repeats over, and over. So, always strive to develop new interior branches for the long run sustainability of the bonsai.

Everyone on this site is so focused on the “creation” of bonsai, they don’t think about the long term maintenance and sustainability if the tree. I have had many people criticize this tree:

View attachment 253645

As being a “green helmet”. It’s not! Yes, it’s full of foliage, but not just around the circumference. It’s comprised of layered pads with foliage going all the way back into the interior. Its not hollow. And because of that, it’s sustainable.

I have no decent pines ready for styling yet, but I’m saving this post for when I do. It is very detailed and well reasoned.

 

[Mihai]

I have
I have no decent pines ready for styling yet, but I’m saving this post for when I do. It is very detailed and well reasoned.

Yupp! This man is a treasure to have around on the forum. If I ever get stateside, I'm probably going to stalk @Adair M

 

[Vance Wood]

Tighten up your angles. That is, you have primary branches coming off the trunk, right? The secondary branches coming off the primaries should make about a 30 to 45 degree angle off the primary branch.

See:

View attachment 253631Doing this will keep the tips moving “out”, away from the trunk. And the overall outside profile of the branch will be more or less triangular. (Rather than rounded). And, it keeps you from having any branches turning inward, back towards the trunk, which is a major fault.

See this diagram:

Here, the tips (and branches) are not properly set.

View attachment 253633

Tips are going every which way, some even backwards towards the trunk.

After wiring and placement:

View attachment 253632

The tips are all pointed out, there’s no crosses branches, each tip has its own space. The tips on the interior, are wired to be a little higher that the ones on the perimeter. They provide “height” to the pad. It’s a layering effect. The upper drawing shows the layering.

Those interior twigs providing the “height”, will someday become the primary branch, so it’s important to train them well. You see, the branch will eventually grow too long for the design, and will have to be cut back. Those upper secondaries can be used as replacement primaries. This repeats over, and over. So, always strive to develop new interior branches for the long run sustainability of the bonsai.

Everyone on this site is so focused on the “creation” of bonsai, they don’t think about the long term maintenance and sustainability if the tree. I have had many people criticize this tree:

View attachment 253645

As being a “green helmet”. It’s not! Yes, it’s full of foliage, but not just around the circumference. It’s comprised of layered pads with foliage going all the way back into the interior. Its not hollow. And because of that, it’s sustainable.

People are often critical lf those things they cannot do themselves and this tree is one of them. A truly unique JBP.

 

[Adair M]

People are often critical lf those things they cannot do themselves and this tree is one of them. A truly unique JBP.

I’m glad you got to see it, Vance. A picture doesn’t do it justice. You really can’t see the pads and depth from a photo.

Working this tree taught me more in 5 years than I knew about JBP after working with them for the previous 35 years!

 

[coltranem]

A little off topic. Just learned about Figure 6 this weekend from Tyler Sherrod at a club workshop.

@Adair M can't thank you enough for your posts on bnut.

 

[Vance Wood]

I’m glad you got to see it, Vance. A picture doesn’t do it justice. You really can’t see the pads and depth from a photo.

Working this tree taught me more in 5 years than I knew about JBP after working with them for the previous 35 years!

You're correct; without hands on you really can't understand, second best is being present when it is done by a master in a Demo.

 

[Adair M]

A little off topic. Just learned about Figure 6 this weekend from Tyler Sherrod at a club workshop.

@Adair M can't thank you enough for your posts on bnut.

Tyler has some mad skills!