The Identification Thread....perhaps?

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Really, where in Southern IL?

About 15 miles south of Murphysboro, and 20 miles north of Cairo IL. Her post office is in Pomona IL. The post office is actually in half of a mobile home. Still had the wheels on it the last time I was there. Her property is on Hickory Ridge Road, just north of the entrance road to the "Little Grand Canyon of the Shawnee National Forest". Its about 100 or 125 miles from Saint Louis, just head south, down Highway 3. Pretty area, the Shawnee is a disjunct northern terminal segment of the Ozark Mountains. Her property has some "hills and hollers". And in her neck of the woods, "holler" is a noun, a place name, not shouting.

photo of part of the family at a pre-covid Thanksgiving, in the "upper part" of her backyard.


the view off her "veranda" a porch built out of pallet wood and cinder blocks

 

[Carol 83]

The post office is actually in half of a mobile home. Still had the wheels on it the last time I was there.

Lol, and I thought I lived in a small town. My Grandpa had 40 acres of pasture that I wandered around/rode my horses in when I was young. Saw some snakes, but never a rattler. He didn't let us swim in the ponds though, there were probably a few cottonmouths in there.

 

[stu929]

@stu929 - sounds like a great place to collect. While I am "big" on correct identification of species, it is not the end all and be all. When scouting your uncle's property, if the first 6 inches of a trunk is interesting, and you find something more than 2 inches in diameter, if you like the look, collect it. We can sort through identification later.

Beech is very much worth learning how to grow as bonsai. It is different in requirements than many trees, but the end result is worth it.

Honeysuckle is mediocre at best to learn to bonsai. There have been a few nice ones, but it is a species I personally dislike as bonsai. If you have no particular love of them, give them a pass.

If you have beech, you probably have American hornbeam, Carpinus. The Carpinus will be found closer to water than the beech, if you have little creeks on the mountain, the hornbeam will be along the creeks.

Thorns - often Crataegus - hawthorn - Hawthorns make excellent medium and larger size bonsai. If you can find a trunk that is not a telephone pole. There are other thorny species, many make good bonsai.

So collect interesting trunks, we can figure out what species you got later. And definitely collect before the snakes are out. My sister has some acreage in Southern Illinois, and her property is lousy with timber rattlers, copperheads and in the swamps, cottonmouths. The only snake I am genuinely afraid of is the cottonmouth. They are nasty, aggressive snakes that will literally go after you as you back away. Getting bit by any of them is no joke, even if not are likely to be fatal (though they all can be fatal if you have complicating health issues). Snakebite is not pleasant, I was bit by a rattlesnake some 45 years ago, and it is most unpleasant.

Leo,

As always thank you for your inciteful reply.


It is quite possible there is hornbeam on my uncles property but as of yet I have not been able to find any. The main reason I was stressing about identification was I want to make sure not to waste time digging something up that is particularly hard to keep alive or just doesn't grow well in a pot. As for American Beech it is all over the place on his property. Its amazing walking around and finding a semi mature one with 30 small trees growing from hits surface roots. Very cool sight. Some of what I am seeing with thorns I believe may be a black locust. It has thorns directly opposite of each other.

Next time I go back I plan to just look for interesting trunks of decent size and mark them for collection in winter. Most of the the mountain is not steep per se but it def has an aggressive incline, my truck didn't have a chance without locking in my hubs. There is only one small stream from a spring up the mountain. It has carved out quite the path down the mountain, maybe long again it flowed more heavily, some summers it goes completely dry but I will make sure to walk it to see what I find. All told he has close to 100 acres that go up the side of a mountain, shame I'm not younger and in better shape where I can walk it all still


Either way I hear your message, focus on something interesting!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Really, where in Southern IL?

Sounds like Chicago...

 

[stu929]

Hop Hornbeam ? American Elm ? Would love some ideas, there are a ton of these on my uncle's property. Just curious if they can be any use.

There is also a crap load of American Beech there as well. I'm hoping to pick a few out and go back in the spring to harvest them.

So from what Im seeing and a couple videos I have watched everything points to either a Pin Cherry or Black Birch. Both look very very similar with the color of bark and the slits in the bark. From what I have read the best way to distinguish between those two is to break a branch and smell them.

 

[Carol 83]

Sounds like Chicago...

I've been to Chicago a few times. Never saw any snakes, but the traffic is terrible and the bars are expensive.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The Lightweight administration ophidiarium staff is at city hall.

 

[Carol 83]

The Lightweight administration ophidiarium staff is at city hall.

The other ones are in jail.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I've been to Chicago a few times. Never saw any snakes, but the traffic is terrible and the bars are expensive.

The snakes in Chicago all have 2 legs, and will try to charm their way into your wallet. Chicago politics is famous for corruption, but seriously, the last 2 administrations seem much less corrupt than some of the previous. Michigan sure has its share of corruption, @Forsoothe! Detroit was drained of all viable capital, political corruption was a major part of Detroit's decline to an abysmal distopya. The last couple decades Detroit is trying to revitalize, but with so little capital left after it was looted by politicians during the 1970's thru 2000, that it can barely get any traction. How many vacant homes in Detroit? And have you taken a look at the city of Flint's history? Don't drink the water. And wacky disgruntled right wingers? How about the kidnap plot for your governor. She was elected with a clear majority of the popular vote, yet the Michigan right wing doesn't get the fact that people are just not that into the Michigan right wing.

All big cities attract corruption, it is the nature of the system.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Leo,

As always thank you for your inciteful reply.


It is quite possible there is hornbeam on my uncles property but as of yet I have not been able to find any. The main reason I was stressing about identification was I want to make sure not to waste time digging something up that is particularly hard to keep alive or just doesn't grow well in a pot. As for American Beech it is all over the place on his property. Its amazing walking around and finding a semi mature one with 30 small trees growing from hits surface roots. Very cool sight. Some of what I am seeing with thorns I believe may be a black locust. It has thorns directly opposite of each other.

Next time I go back I plan to just look for interesting trunks of decent size and mark them for collection in winter. Most of the the mountain is not steep per se but it def has an aggressive incline, my truck didn't have a chance without locking in my hubs. There is only one small stream from a spring up the mountain. It has carved out quite the path down the mountain, maybe long again it flowed more heavily, some summers it goes completely dry but I will make sure to walk it to see what I find. All told he has close to 100 acres that go up the side of a mountain, shame I'm not younger and in better shape where I can walk it all still
View attachment 342495

Either way I hear your message, focus on something interesting!

That looks like a great place for exploring. Definitely follow that stream bed.

If the thorny stuff proves to be black locust, do give it a try. A few of us have looked at black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) as a potential bonsai subject. Myself and a few others have encountered some issues, I currently don't have any alive in pots. Start a thread if you get a decent black locust trunk to experiment with, and will comment more there. Look for a trunk at least 2 to 4 inches in diameter and with some wiggle, or bend or twist in the first half foot. Black locust, with its rough fissured bark, and lovely white flowers could be a very nice bonsai. At least in theory.

As time allows, get familiar with your understory brush. Lindera benzoin, spice bush, makes a pleasant bonsai. It will always be slender trunk, but it is nice, with red berries and a nice scent to the crushed leaves.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Detroit is my hometown, so I know what it looked like in my youth and the difference between then and now are astounding. An aerial view of what used to be a city of homes shoulder-to-shoulder 20 miles wide by 8 miles north from the river now shows more empty lots than houses. A lot more. Anyone who could pack up and leave has done so, and all that empty land is owned by the city. It can't tax itself and the entities that can pay taxes have left town. People and business was chased out of town and ain't going back. I drive around it when going to the other side. It breaks my heart.

 

[stu929]

Leo,

As always thank you for your inciteful reply.


It is quite possible there is hornbeam on my uncles property but as of yet I have not been able to find any. The main reason I was stressing about identification was I want to make sure not to waste time digging something up that is particularly hard to keep alive or just doesn't grow well in a pot. As for American Beech it is all over the place on his property. Its amazing walking around and finding a semi mature one with 30 small trees growing from hits surface roots. Very cool sight. Some of what I am seeing with thorns I believe may be a black locust. It has thorns directly opposite of each other.

Next time I go back I plan to just look for interesting trunks of decent size and mark them for collection in winter. Most of the the mountain is not steep per se but it def has an aggressive incline, my truck didn't have a chance without locking in my hubs. There is only one small stream from a spring up the mountain. It has carved out quite the path down the mountain, maybe long again it flowed more heavily, some summers it goes completely dry but I will make sure to walk it to see what I find. All told he has close to 100 acres that go up the side of a mountain, shame I'm not younger and in better shape where I can walk it all still
View attachment 342495

Either way I hear your message, focus on something interesting!

So I was able to return to the farm and spend a couple hours walking around. I found lots of American Beech, Hickory, what I believe is either Black Cherry or Black Birch, Black locust, ERC, and a few things that I have yet to identify but I think I have some ideas. There also seems to be a ton of Ash as well but from what I know that does not appear to be a great option.

I think this is a hornbeam? If it isn't I'm not sure what it is but it was different from practically everything else I found. It was understory mixed in with a lot of taller trees near the property line on flatter ground near a creek. Either way I marked it and


What I believe is a hackberry merely because I have never seen back like that before, this was located very pretty close to what I believe was a hornbeam yards away in the same treeline near water. I love the bark but this baby was probably 4-6 inches wide so likely to big to be used, I don't recall seeing any others maybe younger ones don't have as flashy of bark?



Then I maid it down to an almost swampy part of the land, ground was saturated and from what my uncle tells me stays that way most of the year and found this. Winterberry? Not sure. The plant was huge and appears to have been broken off or run over by a brush hog at some point. Very large multi trunk base maybe 6 feet tall in total...Debating if I want to try to tackle this as I know it probably has a huge root ball.



Finally I went back to the area that I found the tree nobody seem to be able to identify and was able to find a leaf. To my very amateur eyes it looks like an Elm but I have also heard possibly a type of Cherry or black/cherry Birch. I have found this tree (bark) all over his mountain. A large portion of it was logged I believe 15 years ago so there is a lot of immature growth. The beech and unnamed tree as well as what I believe is black locust have grown back rapidly, outside of those there are still a number of trees I cannot identify very easily this time of year.


I did mark a few and hope to return before spring and grab some. Hopefully I can identify them a little better to know what I'm working with and if I should look harder to mind more. I still have not been able to explore the top of the property where it meets the top of the mountain. I know there is an access road but I haven't been on it in over 20 years. Hopefully I can get a ride up and maybe walk down though some woods that have never been logged.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The one you suspect is a hornbeam sure looks like hornbeam. I'm nearly 100% certain that is hornbeam. Carpinus not Ostrya. Excellent for bonsai, looks about right size.

The suspected Celtis, hackberry, I'm 90% certain that it is Celtis, probably Celtis occidentalis, though it could be C laevigata, southern hackberry (5% chance in my book). They don't form that bark until they are about that size. The "elm like leaf" might be a hackberry leaf. Hard to tell for certain. The unequal base does suggest it really is an elm.

All elm species work for bonsai. American elm has the largest leaves, making it better for medium and large bonsai. American elm leaves reduce to quite small with ramification. Ulmus tubes, slippery elm is good too, and pretty common. Siberian elm is only good if you have full sun. The other elms tolerate some shade.

That certainly looks like winter berry, Ilex verticellata. There's a couple related Ilex, but it looks like verticellata I have on our property.

I would definitely look for more hackberry. It's good for bonsai.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Everyone should have one or two elm bonsai, as well as a carpinus or two.

 

[stu929]

The one you suspect is a hornbeam sure looks like hornbeam. I'm nearly 100% certain that is hornbeam. Carpinus not Ostrya. Excellent for bonsai, looks about right size.

The suspected Celtis, hackberry, I'm 90% certain that it is Celtis, probably Celtis occidentalis, though it could be C laevigata, southern hackberry (5% chance in my book). They don't form that bark until they are about that size. The "elm like leaf" might be a hackberry leaf. Hard to tell for certain. The unequal base does suggest it really is an elm.

All elm species work for bonsai. American elm has the largest leaves, making it better for medium and large bonsai. American elm leaves reduce to quite small with ramification. Ulmus tubes, slippery elm is good too, and pretty common. Siberian elm is only good if you have full sun. The other elms tolerate some shade.

That certainly looks like winter berry, Ilex verticellata. There's a couple related Ilex, but it looks like verticellata I have on our property.

I would definitely look for more hackberry. It's good for bonsai.

Thanks Leo! It was mostly a chance to get out of the house and be away from people but I really am trying to find some decent subjects for the spring.

Now that I've seen one I'll definitely be on the look out for more hackberry. Hackberry is not a tree I ever recall seeing in person before, but now that I know the bark it will hopefully stand out. The hard part for me this time of year is most publications have mature bark pics and with no leaves on right now I'm struggling. I asked for Peterson eastern trees for Christmas so hopefully that will come in handy. I also hope since I found an immature what we believe is hornbeam I can find more. Both the hackberry and Hornbeam were in areas not logged along the property lines near a creek. I'll likely just park at the top of the hill and work my way down and see what I can find next time. I did that on the opposite side of the lot but eventually ran out of sunlight which happens fast this time of year. Neither neighbor has been logged as far as I can tell so there is definitely more diversity when I get to the edge of the property, partially because of the streams but also I think the neighbors trees are dropping seed onto the property.

Thanks again Leo!

 

[stu929]

Everyone should have one or two elm bonsai, as well as a carpinus or two.

Oh and trust me the two biggest things on my list were an elm or a Hornbeam. I may also grab an ERC not because I think they are great but they are definitely common in my part of the state.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hickory leaves do not reduce enough to be useful for bonsai. The 3 or 4 species of ash native to eastern North America are also not good for bonsai due to coarse branch patterns and large compound leaves.

ERC, most find them to be difficult or frustrating to turn into bonsai. Try ERC, and buy yourself a shimpaku at the same time. You will see the difference. Definitely, you should get a shimpaku. It is part of a well rounded bonsai education.

 

[stu929]

Hickory leaves do not reduce enough to be useful for bonsai. The 3 or 4 species of ash native to eastern North America are also not good for bonsai due to coarse branch patterns and large compound leaves.

ERC, most find them to be difficult or frustrating to turn into bonsai. Try ERC, and buy yourself a shimpaku at the same time. You will see the difference. Definitely, you should get a shimpaku. It is part of a well rounded bonsai education.

I have two very small Shimkapu. In the almost year I have had them I have notices only a very very small amount of growth. I was expecting more growth but they did not grow much thats why I started looking to other species. I love the look of shimpaku though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The shimpaku will pick up speed as far as growth goes. If you want faster growth on a shimpaku, don't repot it. They will grow slow or not at all the season after being repotted. I try to repot shimpaku, 'Itoigawa' and 'Kishu' no more than once every 3 to 10 years. Use an inorganic mix, repot, then leave the roots alone as long as possible. They will grow rapidly second and third growing seasons after being repotted. I have a shimpaku that is now coming up on 12 years since last being repotted, it still grows well every summer.

 

[stu929]

The shimpaku will pick up speed as far as growth goes. If you want faster growth on a shimpaku, don't repot it. They will grow slow or not at all the season after being repotted. I try to repot shimpaku, 'Itoigawa' and 'Kishu' no more than once every 3 to 10 years. Use an inorganic mix, repot, then leave the roots alone as long as possible. They will grow rapidly second and third growing seasons after being repotted. I have a shimpaku that is now coming up on 12 years since last being repotted, it still grows well every summer.

I did not know that at all. I will keep that in mind. I did slip pot them but I want to get them into inorganic next year.

Thank you again!