The Identification Thread....perhaps?

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sloe, or Sloe plum, Prunus spinosa was definitely introduced into North America by European colonization. If it appears on a range map, it is because it has become "naturalized", meaning the introduced plants are successfully reproducing in the wild, essentially it has become an invasive species.

Not all invasive species are created equal. Some do not crowd out or choke out native vegetation. In these cases they are not viewed as "bad". But some form monoculture blights on the land. I believe the sloe plum is better behaved than many invasives. Its been in North America since the early days of settlement, and it has not become common in my neck of the woods. So I assumed it was not common anywhere in particular, but it would make sense that in the eastern states it would be more common.

 

[stu929]

Hop Hornbeam ? American Elm ? Would love some ideas, there are a ton of these on my uncle's property. Just curious if they can be any use.

There is also a crap load of American Beech there as well. I'm hoping to pick a few out and go back in the spring to harvest them.

 

[stu929]

Hop Hornbeam ? American Elm ? Would love some ideas, there are a ton of these on my uncle's property. Just curious if they can be any use.

There is also a crap load of American Beech there as well. I'm hoping to pick a few out and go back in the spring to harvest them.

@Leo in N E Illinois

 

[TN_Jim]

Hop Hornbeam ? American Elm ? Would love some ideas, there are a ton of these on my uncle's property. Just curious if they can be any use.

There is also a crap load of American Beech there as well. I'm hoping to pick a few out and go back in the spring to harvest them.

Images remind me of birch, lenticels and buds..maybe something like Betula lenta. More photos would help..leaves on ground

 

[stu929]

Images remind me of birch, lenticels and buds..maybe something like Betula lenta. More photos would help..leaves on ground

This was while walking up mountain. Everything was covered in leaves, none of these trees had any left on them.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hop Hornbeam ? American Elm ? Would love some ideas, there are a ton of these on my uncle's property. Just curious if they can be any use.

There is also a crap load of American Beech there as well. I'm hoping to pick a few out and go back in the spring to harvest them.

I really can not tell from these photos what the small twig is, or the little bit of trunk.

I don't have a winter twig dichotomous botanical key handy. The pointed buds on the twig suggest possibly beech, but the bark color is not classic beech. The thicker stem, I have no clue.

 

[stu929]

I really can not tell from these photos what the small twig is, or the little bit of trunk.

I don't have a winter twig dichotomous botanical key handy. The pointed buds on the twig suggest possibly beech, but the bark color is not classic beech. The thicker stem, I have no clue.

My apologies I should have said these are the same tree.

 

[Shibui]

It is extremely difficult to ID trees from just a small section of trunk. We can see a couple of defining features such as alternate budding and bark color but that's usually not enough.
Leaves, flowers or fruit are obviously good indicators but in the absence of leaves or flowers additional factors like: habit - the overall shape of the tree or plant; location in the landscape - elevation, rocky or deep soils; country and state; whether it could be native or introduced; how many you saw.
Things like those can give a Plant Identifier valuable clues to possible ID or at least to eliminate some possibilities.

To get the best possible ID try to include overall photo of tree and landscape and a location as well as the really valuable close up shots.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Attached are 2 photos I snapped quick from the back yard of Ostrya virginiana, the hop flowered hornbeam. Unfortunately I could not get clear in focus images. Can't really see the important details. So I can not say what your plant is. It could be Ostrya. Maybe. Time will tell.

Ostrya do well with more sun than Carpinus, though both do well with about a half day sun. Ostrya will tolerate full sun. Ostrya will also tolerate dry soils better than Carpinus, though it is not a desert plant by any means. A Carpinus will die from drought stress with just a few hours of being dry to the point of wilting. Ostrya might survive 24 hours of being dry to the point of wilting. But after that, it is as dead as a Carpinus. (I know from experience). So it is not a desert plant. Pomegranate on the other hand, can be dry to wilt, and be left dry 3 to 5 days past the wilting point, and still bounce back if returned to a consistent watering schedule. Not recommended, but just a testament to the different abilities of some trees to survive drought.

 

[stu929]

It is extremely difficult to ID trees from just a small section of trunk. We can see a couple of defining features such as alternate budding and bark color but that's usually not enough.
Leaves, flowers or fruit are obviously good indicators but in the absence of leaves or flowers additional factors like: habit - the overall shape of the tree or plant; location in the landscape - elevation, rocky or deep soils; country and state; whether it could be native or introduced; how many you saw.
Things like those can give a Plant Identifier valuable clues to possible ID or at least to eliminate some possibilities.

To get the best possible ID try to include overall photo of tree and landscape and a location as well as the really valuable close up shots.

Setting was on mountain so very rocky soil. I took what I took to trying to make them as clear as possible. They are among many other trees are were understory in this setting. Somewhat shaded as there is a lot of older growth.

As for leaves on the ground there is no ground only leaves and since none of them has leaves on them if was hard to see what came from which trees as there was a lot of diversity. I tried to take as detailed a pic of the buds as possible. Sadly I will probably have to wait till spring to get you anything better than what I was able to take. Anything else would just look like multiple broomsticks in the side of a mountain.

Thanks again.

 

[TN_Jim]

Setting was on mountain so very rocky soil. I took what I took to trying to make them as clear as possible. They are among many other trees are were understory in this setting. Somewhat shaded as there is a lot of older growth.

As for leaves on the ground there is no ground only leaves and since none of them has leaves on them if was hard to see what came from which trees as there was a lot of diversity. I tried to take as detailed a pic of the buds as possible. Sadly I will probably have to wait till spring to get you anything better than what I was able to take. Anything else would just look like multiple broomsticks in the side of a mountain.

Thanks again.

I have really grown to appreciate and enjoy winter identification. In my experience and as taught, looking at leaves on the ground is vital to getting in ballpark, to family, genus, etc.
It’s a challenge to go back to an area and see if you got it right or close, or inversely remember a tree and go see what it does in winter..

Leaves on ground
This can be an elimination game -what you know it is not only narrows it down, but also paints a picture of the direct habit type.

Those horizontal lenticels you have photographed are fairly conspicuous for a ~1” trunk. Trees that I think of with lenticels like that are in Roseaceae like a cherry...or Betulaceae like our birches. Hornbeams, hop hornbeams, or elms I’m not familiar with them doing that in that way.

For example, here’s Betula lenta (cherry birch) pulled from the site below:

Betula lenta (cherry birch): Go Botany

gobotany.nativeplanttrust.org

To me..this looks like a cherry, but it’s not..

Without counting bud scales and such...the way the buds protrude out from the twig goes against my experience with other species in question except for beech. Beech buds are kinda sharp at the point like a needle, your trunk photo don’t look like a beech to me, but... as stated above, trees are highly variable..especially from place too place, state to state, habitat to habitat.

Look forward to right or wrong, what is found to be. Please keep us posted.

 

[stu929]

I will return, most likely very soon. I just don't expect to see anything that will help me until spring.

As for the beech. There is a lot of American beech on the property in groves for lack of a better term. Where there is one there is a small forest of them growing from the ground roots. That being said they definitely look different, much more pointed buds and smooth gray bark. Not saying this couldn't be another species but the bark and buds of this looked very different than what I understand to be a beech on my uncle's land. I think my uncle said there was some cherry on this land but he didn't get into detail. Be mentioned mostly birch beech and hickory. Unfortunately he did not go up on the mountain and knows mostly leaves. When I was looking at a group of these trees I was standing shin deep in leaves I tried to look through some but there were multiple different shapes. The most prevalent was spade shaped with serrations I believe but this is a fully wooded mountain with only a path for a 4x4 up and back. No cleared ground and minimal if any evergreens.

I went hoping to find Hornbeam and Tamarack (larch) but mostly found the trees in the picture, a tree with a lot of thorns I have not identified, and American Beech which while a beautiful tree I have seen many warnings to stay away from it for bonsai. Btw I didn't find a tamarack and don't think I was able to locate any hornbeams which was disappointing. My goal was to identify some trees and mark them to in early spring before I had to contend with too many snakes or ticks I could hopefully harvest a few. Or if the species could tolerate it sometime sooner.

On another note I saw this amazing trunk I wanted soon bad but it was just too big and I would never get it into a pot but it had hollows from two different sides and a lot of character. I told my cousin what I was looking for and he said he would keep his eyes open for me. I may go out next week and just ride around again the problem is some of the mountain was logged about 15 years ago and it seems that in some areas there are groups of the same tree over and over. Either some mature trees were left when it was logged or they just happened to be the best suited for that spot and donated the repopulation effort after it was logged.

 

[TN_Jim]

I will return, most likely very soon. I just don't expect to see anything that will help me until spring.

As for the beech. There is a lot of American beech on the property in groves for lack of a better term. Where there is one there is a small forest of them growing from the ground roots. That being said they definitely look different, much more pointed buds and smooth gray bark. Not saying this couldn't be another species but the bark and buds of this looked very different than what I understand to be a beech on my uncle's land. I think my uncle said there was some cherry on this land but he didn't get into detail. Be mentioned mostly birch beech and hickory. Unfortunately he did not go up on the mountain and knows mostly leaves. When I was looking at a group of these trees I was standing shin deep in leaves I tried to look through some but there were multiple different shapes. The most prevalent was spade shaped with serrations I believe but this is a fully wooded mountain with only a path for a 4x4 up and back. No cleared ground and minimal if any evergreens.

I went hoping to find Hornbeam and Tamarack (larch) but mostly found the trees in the picture, a tree with a lot of thorns I have not identified, and American Beech which while a beautiful tree I have seen many warnings to stay away from it for bonsai. Btw I didn't find a tamarack and don't think I was able to locate any hornbeams which was disappointing. My goal was to identify some trees and mark them to in early spring before I had to contend with too many snakes or ticks I could hopefully harvest a few. Or if the species could tolerate it sometime sooner.

On another note I saw this amazing trunk I wanted soon bad but it was just too big and I would never get it into a pot but it had hollows from two different sides and a lot of character. I told my cousin what I was looking for and he said he would keep his eyes open for me. I may go out next week and just ride around again the problem is some of the mountain was logged about 15 years ago and it seems that in some areas there are groups of the same tree over and over. Either some mature trees were left when it was logged or they just happened to be the best suited for that spot and donated the repopulation effort after it was logged.

that tree is impressive.

what’s wrong with beech? beech make incredible bonsai (although not mine...yet)
would not completely bare root clean when collected and potted up tho...lots of fine feeder roots...decent soil that drains and breathes..why not?

collected this one off the side of a mountain before I knew that they could be difficult to collect, has potential, that cross root gotta go, was 3’ when first chopped and dug it (thanks @JudyB, was scary to cut again this low). Once past collection window and out of the woods health-wise, not difficult to grow/develop -refinement perhaps its own unique elements...internodes need checked here for example, but not beyond reach


why not use best practices collecting late winter of the best trees you see? -even if can’t exactly identify them? your uncles place seems pretty great.

 

[stu929]

that tree is impressive.

what’s wrong with beech? beech make incredible bonsai (although not mine...yet)
would not completely bare root clean when collected and potted up tho...lots of fine feeder roots...decent soil that drains and breathes..why not?

collected this one off the side of a mountain before I knew that they could be difficult to collect, has potential, that cross root gotta go, was 3’ when first chopped and dug it (thanks @JudyB, was scary to cut again this low). Once past collection window and out of the woods health-wise, not difficult to grow/develop -refinement perhaps its own unique elements...internodes need checked here for example, but not beyond reach
View attachment 341918

why not use best practices collecting late winter of the best trees you see? -even if can’t exactly identify them? your uncles place seems pretty great.

I could do later winter, not an issue. I don't have any shelter so I thought spring was the best option but winter would be better, not loving the ticks and snakes.

I was under the impression with the single push that they were super slow to develop. I think they are beautiful trees. The ones at my uncle's place have very smooth bark and there are tons to choose from. Just didn't think they were the best option given the speed of growth.

 

[TN_Jim]

I could do later winter, not an issue. I don't have any shelter so I thought spring was the best option but winter would be better, not loving the ticks and snakes.

I was under the impression with the single push that they were super slow to develop. I think they are beautiful trees. The ones at my uncle's place have very smooth bark and there are tons to choose from. Just didn't think they were the best option given the speed of growth.

Late winter / early spring before leaf buds break into any form of leaf is arguably the best (greatest success rate) time of year to collect deciduous trees -at least in our relative region of the world. The farther you get from this time (species and other region-dependent), success can and will decrease.

Yes beech is a slower growing species, but so is a Japanese maple and you don’t see that stopping many folks. That said, why not have your cake and eat it too? Collect some trees using best practices, if some are slow so be it, time will reward, and eventually reward in that you are not constantly fighting the hydra. Meanwhile, my thought and approach is to get some crape myrtle, trident maple, or faster growing species to bide those in between days.

 

[stu929]

Late winter / early spring before leaf buds break into any form of leaf is arguably the best (greatest success rate) time of year to collect deciduous trees -at least in our relative region of the world. The farther you get from this time (species and other region-dependent), success can and will decrease.

Yes beech is a slower growing species, but so is a Japanese maple and you don’t see that stopping many folks. That said, why not have your cake and eat it too? Collect some trees using best practices, if some are slow so be it, time will reward, and eventually reward in that you are not constantly fighting the hydra. Meanwhile, my thought and approach is to get some crape myrtle, trident maple, or faster growing species to bide those in between days.

I like the sound of that. Meehans Miniatures isn't far away. Before spring hits I hope to travel down and pick up a Hornbeam and a Trident at a minimum. If I get lucky maybe I'll find a faster growing species on the mountain. Shame I can't have Leo in tow helping me identify things. That right now is amy biggest challenge for making plans on what to dig up. Mulberry and Honeysuckle is everywhere here as well so those will likely be dug up as well.

Thank again! Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@stu929 - sounds like a great place to collect. While I am "big" on correct identification of species, it is not the end all and be all. When scouting your uncle's property, if the first 6 inches of a trunk is interesting, and you find something more than 2 inches in diameter, if you like the look, collect it. We can sort through identification later.

Beech is very much worth learning how to grow as bonsai. It is different in requirements than many trees, but the end result is worth it.

Honeysuckle is mediocre at best to learn to bonsai. There have been a few nice ones, but it is a species I personally dislike as bonsai. If you have no particular love of them, give them a pass.

If you have beech, you probably have American hornbeam, Carpinus. The Carpinus will be found closer to water than the beech, if you have little creeks on the mountain, the hornbeam will be along the creeks.

Thorns - often Crataegus - hawthorn - Hawthorns make excellent medium and larger size bonsai. If you can find a trunk that is not a telephone pole. There are other thorny species, many make good bonsai.

So collect interesting trunks, we can figure out what species you got later. And definitely collect before the snakes are out. My sister has some acreage in Southern Illinois, and her property is lousy with timber rattlers, copperheads and in the swamps, cottonmouths. The only snake I am genuinely afraid of is the cottonmouth. They are nasty, aggressive snakes that will literally go after you as you back away. Getting bit by any of them is no joke, even if not are likely to be fatal (though they all can be fatal if you have complicating health issues). Snakebite is not pleasant, I was bit by a rattlesnake some 45 years ago, and it is most unpleasant.

 

[Carol 83]

My sister has some acreage in Southern Illinois, and her property is lousy with timber rattlers, copperheads and in the swamps, cottonmouths.

Really, where in Southern IL?

 

[Eckhoffw]

I believe jack pine is common around these parts?

 

[Eckhoffw]

H

I believe jack pine is common around these parts?

Haha! Oops. Late to the game