The Identification Thread....perhaps?

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The shimpaku will pick up speed as far as growth goes. If you want faster growth on a shimpaku, don't repot it. They will grow slow or not at all the season after being repotted. I try to repot shimpaku, 'Itoigawa' and 'Kishu' no more than once every 3 to 10 years. Use an inorganic mix, repot, then leave the roots alone as long as possible. They will grow rapidly second and third growing seasons after being repotted. I have a shimpaku that is now coming up on 12 years since last being repotted, it still grows well every summer.

I went ahead and put pencil thick itoigawa in an experimental mixture of acidic black peat with 40% pine bark, totally organic, but less watering than I would water my bonsai-to-be. They swallow 4mm wire in a year and extend roughly a foot on every branch. But the quality of the growth is rather poor: lots of needle foliage.
I'm considering to start using these kind of soils to bulk junipers as scion donors.

 

[Mailo06]

Hi can someone identify this shimpaku? I heard shimpaku is a general name for chinensis tipe of juniperus. it have a bluish colour.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@stu929 here's a shot of Ilex verticellata on our farm in SW Michigan. We've had a dry summer and autumn, so berries are sparse this year. Normally there's 3 times more berries. It's been so dry I didn't get wet feet getting to the hummock with the Ilex.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hi can someone identify this shimpaku? I heard shimpaku is a general name for chinensis tipe of juniperus. it have a bluish colour.

It's difficult or impossible to guess cultivar names from photos. But the blue foliage suggests it might be 'Blaauw'. All shimpaku get roughly the same treatment as bonsai, the name is not that important.

 

[stu929]

The one you suspect is a hornbeam sure looks like hornbeam. I'm nearly 100% certain that is hornbeam. Carpinus not Ostrya. Excellent for bonsai, looks about right size.

The suspected Celtis, hackberry, I'm 90% certain that it is Celtis, probably Celtis occidentalis, though it could be C laevigata, southern hackberry (5% chance in my book). They don't form that bark until they are about that size. The "elm like leaf" might be a hackberry leaf. Hard to tell for certain. The unequal base does suggest it really is an elm.

All elm species work for bonsai. American elm has the largest leaves, making it better for medium and large bonsai. American elm leaves reduce to quite small with ramification. Ulmus tubes, slippery elm is good too, and pretty common. Siberian elm is only good if you have full sun. The other elms tolerate some shade.

That certainly looks like winter berry, Ilex verticellata. There's a couple related Ilex, but it looks like verticellata I have on our property.

I would definitely look for more hackberry. It's good for bonsai.

You mentioned hackberry looks this way when more older. Do you have any pictures of younger hackberry? I am not nearly as good at identification obviously but want to make sure when I go back this week I can grab a few trees if possible.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You mentioned hackberry looks this way when more older. Do you have any pictures of younger hackberry? I am not nearly as good at identification obviously but want to make sure when I go back this week I can grab a few trees if possible.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures of young hackberry. I currently don't own one. I will grab a picture if I remember in my travels. But I don't routinely see hackberry in my neighborhood. I have seen them in Chicago, just not near my house. i'll try to get a few pictures.

Young hackberry, do look alot like young elms.

 

[stu929]

Sorry, I don't have any pictures of young hackberry. I currently don't own one. I will grab a picture if I remember in my travels. But I don't routinely see hackberry in my neighborhood. I have seen them in Chicago, just not near my house. i'll try to get a few pictures.

Young hackberry, do look alot like young elms.

As always I appreciate you sir!

I'm just trying to get better at identification and sometimes apps fail me or I have no service.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The very little I've seen of apps is they have a very high error rate. One of the biggest errors they make is coming up with plants that could not be growing in the location the user is in. Every location has its list of "usual" suspects, and the apps have been bad at it. If you are in southwest USA, and you see a 4 legged animal with 4 legs, and hooves, your most likely best guesses are donkey or horse. If you were on the plains of the Serengeti, you best guess would be zebra. The apps will often give the user in USA zebra before they suggest the horse.

1. When trying to identify a species, before any other trait, first notice if it is alternate or opposite leaves. This neatly divides the list of candidates in half.

2. Next notice if leaves are compound or simple. This again will divide the list of candidates in half again.

3. Then notice whether there are serrations, a sawtooth edge, or simple entire edge to the leaf.

Just those 3 traits will narrow the list of candidates to a much more manageable list.

Hackberries superficially resemble elms. They tend to have a slightly longer "drip tip" to their leaves, in that they tend to be tapered to a longer point than elms. Look at the underside (abaxial) surface of the leaf. The leaf of a young hackberry has 3 veins radiating from near where the petiole joins the leaf blade. If you have a mature hackberry to get a verified reference sample the vein pattern is the same between adult hackberries and juvenile hackberries. Once you see the vein pattern on the hackberry leaf, you can recognize it in even one year seedings. But it is difficult to describe with words. I have to find an adult tree every spring in order to refresh my recollection, as the vein pattern is distinctive and unique but it is not a "slap you in the head" obvious difference.

Elm has a SINGLE vein, running from the leaf petiole (leaf stem) to the tip of the leaf. In hackberries this vein branches into 3 main sub-veins where in elms it is a "straight run" to the tip of the leaf.

 

[TN_Jim]

Here’s a relatively young hackberry. Regarding winter collection the best determining factor for me has been the thin wavy twigs with virtually no apparent buds -buds appear very late and even then they are extremely tiny as opposed to hornbeam, elm, and most others that will tend to have conspicuous buds from fall on. Lenticels can be an ID aid as well.

Hackberry here also tend to be one of the last to leaf out and this absence of visible buds can make you wonder if they’ll ever wake up and when they do it seems to happen almost overnight rather than a prolonged swelling and unraveling of leaves.

 

[stu929]

Here’s a relatively young hackberry. Regarding winter collection the best determining factor for me has been the thin wavy twigs with virtually no apparent buds -buds appear very late and even then they are extremely tiny as opposed to hornbeam, elm, and most others that will tend to have conspicuous buds from fall on. Lenticels can be an ID aid as well.

Hackberry here also tend to be one of the last to leaf out and this absence of visible buds can make you wonder if they’ll ever wake up and when they do it seems to happen almost overnight rather than a prolonged swelling and unraveling of leaves.
View attachment 364964

Thank you. While the color is lighter the horizontal lines in the bars remind me a lot of the cherry I see.

 

[Nelis]

I'm so glad for this thread.
I have two trees I need help on please. Being in South Africa, I know that these trees are not indigenous, therefore I'm strugglin to identify them, as I've also never seen them in nurseries.

The first one I believe must be part of the Acer family (which is huge), looking at the seeds, looking at the leaves, it might be a sub species of the trident. Anybody know this one?

 

[Nelis]

The next one I think is a Cedar of Lebanon, as far as I could gather from my research,

I took pictures of the cones over a period of about three to four weeks, I gathered that these cones are probably Male cones, but I don't find female cones. I want to propagate these and was hoping for something with seeds. Will cuttings take?

 

[Enfield Snapper]

these cones are probably Male cones, but I don't find female cones

True cedars are dieocious, so you'll never find pollen cones and seed cones on the same tree.

 

[Lutonian]

The next one I think is a Cedar of Lebanon, as far as I could gather from my research, View attachment 365469View attachment 365470View attachment 365471View attachment 365472View attachment 365473

I took pictures of the cones over a period of about three to four weeks, I gathered that these cones are probably Male cones, but I don't find female cones. I want to propagate these and was hoping for something with seeds. Will cuttings take?View attachment 365474

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedrus_atlantica it is this type of cedar the cultivar is likely to be glauca. Cedars have upright female cones that disintegrate at maturity and they have female and male cone on the same tree

 

[Shibui]

I find it a little hard to accurately tell one cedar species from another unless you have all 3 side by side. Even then environmental differences can make needles longer or shorter and muddy the waters even more. Blue atlantic cedar is generally more common as a landscape tree with smaller foliage. Species ID is not really needed as all are treated similar as bonsai.
Cedars are monoeceous but trees may not always produce female cones in some climates.

The previous tree is almost certainly trident maple. Mature landscape trees tend to have these spade shaped leaves. If you grow seedlings they are likely to look the same as other trident maple grown for bonsai. Seed is usually ripe when it turns brown so that seed looks mature so you could collect some now and prepare for spring germination. The seed will hang on the trees well after the leaves drop in a few weeks. I generally try to leave it as late as possible to collect to ensure really ripe and viable seed. I find that fresh seed does not require stratification to germinate. You may get slightly better rates with cold treatment so maybe try 2 different options when trying to grow some. I just sow seed in trays in autumn and leave it out in the weather over winter. Normal cool nights will provide enough natural stratification far better than a fridge. Just make sure the trays are protected from seed eating birds and rodents. If the seed is as viable as here you are likely to find seedlings all through the gardens nearby which can save the work and space of seed trays. Just pull up seedlings in winter, prune the roots and pot up.

 

[leatherback]

almost certainly trident maple

Agreed. but I recommend the OP to also take a look: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/is-this-a-buergerianum-or-a-discolor.40965/

 

[Lutonian]

Agreed. but I recommend the OP to also take a look: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/is-this-a-buergerianum-or-a-discolor.40965/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer sempervirens also have a look at the cretan maple similar leaves and drought/heat tolerant.

 

[Enfield Snapper]

Cedars are monoeceous but trees may not always produce female cones in some climates.

I must have gotten confused in my research on cedars, then. I've read sources that say both. I also saw one source that said in some cases deodar could be either. I've only ever seen cedars with pollen or seed cones on it, though - never both. Interesting.

 

[Nelis]

Cedars are monoeceous but trees may not always produce female cones in some climates

Thanks Shibui! There is about 40 odd trees planted along the fence only some have the cones as in the pictures above the others have nothing. So I guess our climate does not allow for the females to produce cones.

Bummer, so propagation via seeds is out. Any experience on cutting success?
I took about 8 match stick cuttings 7 weeks ago, they dropped some needles early on and then it stabilised, but no roots yet.

 

[Nelis]

Agreed. but I recommend the OP to also take a look: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/is-this-a-buergerianum-or-a-discolor.40965/

Thanks for the confusing link Leatherback, no help what so friggin ever. Quite difficult to distinguish them. As long as the general care and its behaviour to bonsai technique is similar, I'll give them a go.