The best advice from bonsai masters youve gotten

well thanks for posting the tree. I didn’t mean to make you cry... jeesh

You disagreed with Mark and said “bonsai are grown and topiary are cut down”. I asked you to post a tree. You did and the one you posted was chopped down. Is that about the way you see it or you want to make up more BS. You guys on the seeds and cutting side need to clarify your stance on this stuff as it pertains to bonsai. You are arguing scmantics and hiding by a false premise that when growing a seedling you somehow have more control and maybe just maybe think you can have a more blemish free trunk. If that’s not the case then say that. Your cutting seedling premise means nothing other than history.... if you take pictures every year. Otherwise in the end what difference does it make. Bonsai is the ends. The means mean nothing. Unless you just like to play with sticks in pots. I don’t.

I have said that sometimes Smoke's advice can come with a stinky wrapper. This is one of those cases, I think. His point above is a valid one. I posted that seedlings are a waste of time if you want to learn bonsai (which most people didn't have a problem with--including Walter Pall BTW)... I thought the remark about cut downs being "topiary" was mostly an unnecessary jab.

Anyway, I think the argument for seedlings as bonsai has been blurred here. I have worked with seedlings for twenty years now, BUT those trees didn't really teach me anything. I grew them and applied what I was learning with more advanced "cut down" stock.

My arguments against seedlings--(and this is also a relative term, since it can cover a lot of stock from 1/4" year old plant to inch wide years old plants and everything in between) are that they WILL NOT teach you much bonsai. Thinking those trees will result in awesome bonsai twenty years later if you're using them exclusively is a pipe dream. The amur maple seedlings in the pic below were begun as 1/4" saplings purchased from Bill V back in the late 90's. They are nice, but not really all that great. That's because I was developing them before I had much time doing bonsai. What you do to a seedling now (either as an advanced bonsaiist, or a newby), is reflected 20 years down the road...
IMG_5352.jpgIMG_2779.jpg
 
I don't know any bonsai master but here is what I got from a martial art master: "Stay quiet & just do what I say and you become my dummy. I have plenty of those here. Talk & don't listen and you become a loud mouth dummy. I will have none of those here. Ask, listen, and think about the answers and you can drink tea with me. People I drink tea with are few."
 
Boy does that ever sound Boonish!
True, I am a SOB!

Regardless, it’s true! If the goal is to make bonsai, knowing what works, what to do and when to do it, is essential. The biology behind it works whether you understand it or not.
 
"...bonsai, the final stage of tree life"

edit: "the only stupid question is a question not asked"
 
Boy does that ever sound Boonish!
Pretty sure it was Adair speaking, cannot recall Boon ever expressing that thought. Boon was and still is interested in the ever changing theories as to why? I have studied with Boon long enough to experience the adaptation of techniques, tools and theories first hand. His teaching always involves the why and plenty of time for questions.

I happen to think Adair's comment is correct, many successful bonsai practitioners know the how and when but struggle with or are not concerned with the why. Personally, whenever possible i would like to understand the why, that is what allows for growth and adaptation to varying species and climates.

Just ramblings from another SOB.
 
I happen to think Adair's comment is correct, many successful bonsai practitioners know the how and when but struggle with or are not concerned with the why. Personally, whenever possible i would like to understand the why, that is what allows for growth and adaptation to varying species and climates.
Definitely - the more you know about the "why", the better the chance you can successfully deal with problems that may crop up, especially problems that
may be related to your particular location/environment. On the other hand, knowing too much can sometimes lead to "paralysis by analysis".
 
Definitely - the more you know about the "why", the better the chance you can successfully deal with problems that may crop up, especially problems that
may be related to your particular location/environment. On the other hand, knowing too much can sometimes lead to "paralysis by analysis".
That i can agree with. Important to make a decision and move forward.
 
True, I am a SOB!

Regardless, it’s true! If the goal is to make bonsai, knowing what works, what to do and when to do it, is essential. The biology behind it works whether you understand it or not.

Knowing why can help you apply proper technique in situations you have not before encountered.
 
Knowing why can help you apply proper technique in situations you have not before encountered.
Oh, I’m not saying that knowing the “why” isn’t helpful, or isn’t worth knowing. It’s just not necessary!

How many people drive cars successfully, yet are completely clueless as to how the chemistry of combustion works? Or how much thrust is created? Or how friction brakes work?

How many of us understand how the Higg’s bosun causes gravity that we all use every day?

Ok, ok, I know I’m exaggerating. But, I think sometimes we get so wound up in knowing the “why” that we forget the goal is simply to make beautiful trees!
 
Oh, I’m not saying that knowing the “why” isn’t helpful, or isn’t worth knowing. It’s just not necessary!

How many people drive cars successfully, yet are completely clueless as to how the chemistry of combustion works? Or how much thrust is created? Or how friction brakes work?

How many of us understand how the Higg’s bosun causes gravity that we all use every day?

Ok, ok, I know I’m exaggerating. But, I think sometimes we get so wound up in knowing the “why” that we forget the goal is simply to make beautiful trees!
We got the idea. For my forgetful self however, knowing the why sometimes keep me from forgetting the important steps. For some reason the why explanation sticks in my brain a lot longer than the how.
PS: My goal is more modest: I want to keep them alive after playing with them.
 
As someone new to bonsai, I am really struggling to understand the logic behind the anti-seed/seedling debate. Is it not important to have trees in all stages of development? I get that some people don’t want to put forth the effort and time in growing from seed. That’s their preference, they’d rather collect or purchase more mature material. I also understand their advisories to new bonsai practitioners to consider that growing from seed/seedling may be difficult and lead to disappointment without learning or yielding results. Understood.

However, coming from someone familiar with horticulture, one can not definitively declare that growing from seed is wrong. What that shows is that they haven’t done it, have failed and have become frustrated with it or simply don’t want to bother with time or the different rearing practices involved. That’s understandable. However, one simply cannot argue that it is wrong. Bonsai can most definitely be grown from seed and one can most definitely create a worthy piece in less than half of one’s lifetime. For example, ficus. Given the right climate, one can most definitely create a decent ficus bonsai from seed in 10 years. From a sheer horticultural standpoint, growing from seed also has its ostensible benefits. Of which include limitation of scaring, more access to root development and trunk manipulation early on.

Whoever says growing from seed is wrong is foolhardy at worst. Whoever says growing from seed is a waste of time has an opinion at best. Bottom line. It can and is being done.
 
As someone new to bonsai, I am really struggling to understand the logic behind the anti-seed/seedling debate. Is it not important to have trees in all stages of development? I get that some people don’t want to put forth the effort and time in growing from seed. That’s their preference, they’d rather collect or purchase more mature material. I also understand their advisories to new bonsai practitioners to consider that growing from seed/seedling may be difficult and lead to disappointment without learning or yielding results. Understood.

However, coming from someone familiar with horticulture, one can not definitively declare that growing from seed is wrong. What that shows is that they haven’t done it, have failed and have become frustrated with it or simply don’t want to bother with time or the different rearing practices involved. That’s understandable. However, one simply cannot argue that it is wrong. Bonsai can most definitely be grown from seed and one can most definitely create a worthy piece in less than half of one’s lifetime. For example, ficus. Given the right climate, one can most definitely create a decent ficus bonsai from seed in 10 years. From a sheer horticultural standpoint, growing from seed also has its ostensible benefits. Of which include limitation of scaring, more access to root development and trunk manipulation early on.

Whoever says growing from seed is wrong is foolhardy at worst. Whoever says growing from seed is a waste of time has an opinion at best. Bottom line. It can and is being done.

@rockm and I have debated this topic too. @Lou T you are on track.
Bonsai consists of several phases, and different techniques are used in each of the phases. The growing from seed to and through the pre-bonsai phase have a fairly limited number of techniques that are also used in the later phases of developing bonsai. @rockm is right, raising a seedling will not teach you much at all about training a near mature bonsai or maintaining an exhibit ready bonsai. So little in common that RockM prefers to think of this phase as not really being bonsai at all. It is the nurseryman's phase of raising bonsai, absolutely necessary for someone to do if RockM or anyone else are to have any trees to practice the later phases of bonsai techniques upon, but really, very few of the techniques have much in common with the techniques of styling and maintaining exhibit quality bonsai. Yes, one or two applications of wire, some root pruning, some branch pruning,, but overall if a seedling gets 15 minutes per year of ''bonsai technique'' it gets a lot. So RockM is right, raising seedlings won't teach you about handling other phases of bonsai. I do however consider the ''nurseryman's phase'' of raising seedlings as truly part of bonsai. And I enjoy it.

The process of developing pre-bonsai, through the middle stages, through several cycles of style, shape, wire, prune, train, then allow to grow out, then repeat the style, prune and train, then grow out - this middle phase is very important, most consider it ''real bonsai work'', but it is not the totality of bonsai technique either. Here you are doing wiring, pruning, grafting if needed, root pruning, and otherwise shaping your trees, but learning everything you need to know in this phase will not inform you how to handle a mature, exhibition ready tree.

Maintaining an exhibition worthy tree is a whole separate body of knowledge, you stop with the grafting that belongs to earlier phases, major pruning and other styling activities, as style is set. Your wiring and pruning is for fine detail, rarely are you using the larger gauges of wire, your focus is creating or maintaining the foliage pads. This is the phase where pinching is an approved activity at certain times, just before show time. The cycle of moving the tree to the exhibition pot, then back to the ''everyday pot'' is something that few get the chance to practice. This is bonsai at its highest level.

And then there is the art of display, the right pot, the right stand, the right kusamono the correct little sculptures or stones. This is a whole field of study that you can spend years learning and never touch a tree. Kusamono is a whole horticultural adventure in and of itself. The art of display, matching all the elements, is a whole body of knowledge of enormous depth.

So if you are new to bonsai, where do you put your efforts? If money were no object? I would put a lot of more my effort into the last 2 phases of bonsai. A really thoughtful student of bonsai would put some effort into all phases. Put some effort, maybe 10% of your time into seedlings, put some effort, maybe 20% into developing landscape nursery stock & collected stock. Put maybe 30 % of your time into stock that has matured enough to have gone through several cycles of styling and grow out. And finally put the rest of your time, here would be 40% into exhibition ready and near exhibition ready trees.

How would this look, seedlings don't take much effort, so with 10% of my time I could have maybe 50 seedlings. Pre-bonsai take a bit more work, but not that much, I could probably keep 10 or 20 going and still put only 20% of my time into them. Trees in regular cycles of styling and then growing out, these are MUCH more work. One could easily spend a full 6 or 8 hour day working on a Hinoki, or Juniper or Stewartia in this phase. To keep to 30% of your time, you might be able to handle at most around 10 trees in this phase.

The final, mature phase - here these trees can be very demanding of detailed care to keep them exhibition ready. As Adair has documented, it can take 2 days just removing old needles from a mature, full size JBP. Then the detail wiring can take another 2 days, yes 16 hours or so. So to keep 40% of your time on exhibit ready trees, it is possible that your will only be able to keep 2 or 3 trees in this phase of development.

So if someone where new to bonsai, and had the good fortune to be pretty much horticulturally competent in as far as the basics goes. That is how I would split it up. A number of sticks in pots, a smaller number of further along pre-bonsai. A handful of fully developed trees, past their first styling, and a couple exhibition ready trees. This is the only way you can learn all phases of bonsai, by having trees in all phases of the hobby.

Some like RockM, prefer to work only in the last couple phases, a perfectly valid approach. As most if not all of the bonsai techniques needed for the first phases of bonsai are at least occasionally used in the final, fully developed phases. You only learn the "totality of bonsai" if you are maintaining a few trees in the exhibition phase and a few more trees in the various cycles of style, grow out, then style again, then grow out. If you never exhibit a tree, you will miss out on the display aspect of bonsai.

Key to this is as your seedling begin to demand more time, and move to the next phase, thin them out, reduce their numbers, or they will distract you from providing time for the more mature trees.

A well rounded bonsai education includes all phases of bonsai. To learn the totality of bonsai is an education that requires a lifetime. But we can have fun, learning what we can, and learn the most if our collection includes trees at different stages of development. Save up, go out and get a more mature tree than the ones you have. You will be glad you did.
 
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@rockm and I have debated this topic too. @Lou T you are on track.
Bonsai consists of several phases, and different techniques are used in each of the phases. The growing from seed to and through the pre-bonsai phase have a fairly limited number of techniques that are also used in the later phases of developing bonsai. @rockm is right, raising a seedling will not teach you much at all about training a near mature bonsai or maintaining an exhibit ready bonsai. So little in common that RockM prefers to think of this phase as not really being bonsai at all. It is the nurseryman's phase of raising bonsai, absolutely necessary for someone to do if RockM or anyone else are to have any trees to practice the later phases of bonsai techniques upon, but really, very few of the techniques have much in common with the techniques of styling and maintaining exhibit quality bonsai. Yes, one or two applications of wire, some root pruning, some branch pruning,, but overall if a seedling gets 15 minutes per year of ''bonsai technique'' it gets a lot. So RockM is right, raising seedlings won't teach you about handling other phases of bonsai. I do however consider the ''nurseryman's phase'' of raising seedlings as truly part of bonsai. And I enjoy it.

The process of developing pre-bonsai, through the middle stages, through several cycles of style, shape, wire, prune, train, then allow to grow out, then repeat the style, prune and train, then grow out - this middle phase is very important, most consider it ''real bonsai work'', but it is not the totality of bonsai technique either. Here you are doing wiring, pruning, grafting if needed, root pruning, and otherwise shaping your trees, but learning everything you need to know in this phase will not inform you how to handle a mature, exhibition ready tree.

Maintaining an exhibition worthy tree is a whole separate body of knowledge, you stop with the grafting that belongs to earlier phases, major pruning and other styling activities, as style is set. Your wiring and pruning is for fine detail, rarely are you using the larger gauges of wire, your focus is creating or maintaining the foliage pads. This is the phase where pinching is an approved activity at certain times, just before show time. The cycle of moving the tree to the exhibition pot, then back to the ''everyday pot'' is something that few get the chance to practice. This is bonsai at its highest level.

And then there is the art of display, the right pot, the right stand, the right kusamono the correct little sculptures or stones. This is a whole field of study that you can spend years learning and never touch a tree. Kusamono is a whole horticultural adventure in and of itself. The art of display, matching all the elements, is a whole body of knowledge of enormous depth.

So if you are new to bonsai, where do you put your efforts? If money were no object? I would put a lot of more my effort into the last 2 phases of bonsai. A really thoughtful student of bonsai would put some effort into all phases. Put some effort, maybe 10% of your time into seedlings, put some effort, maybe 20% into developing landscape nursery stock & collected stock. Put maybe 30 % of your time into stock that has matured enough to have gone through several cycles of styling and grow out. And finally put the rest of your time, here would be 40% into exhibition ready and near exhibition ready trees.

How would this look, seedlings don't take much effort, so with 10% of my time I could have maybe 50 seedlings. Pre-bonsai take a bit more work, but not that much, I could probably keep 10 or 20 going and still put only 20% of my time into them. Trees in regular cycles of styling and then growing out, these are MUCH more work. One could easily spend a full 6 or 8 hour day working on a Hinoki, or Juniper or Stewartia in this phase. To keep to 30% of your time, you might be able to handle at most around 10 trees in this phase.

The final, mature phase - here these trees can be very demanding of detailed care to keep them exhibition ready. As Adair has documented, it can take 2 days just removing old needles from a mature, full size JBP. Then the detail wiring can take another 2 days, yes 16 hours or so. So to keep 40% of your time on exhibit ready trees, it is possible that your will only be able to keep 2 or 3 trees in this phase of development.

So if someone where new to bonsai, and had the good fortune to be pretty much horticulturally competent in as far as the basics goes. That is how I would split it up. A number of sticks in pots, a smaller number of further along pre-bonsai. A handful of fully developed trees, past their first styling, and a couple exhibition ready trees. This is the only way you can learn all phases of bonsai, by having trees in all phases of the hobby.

Some like RockM, prefer to work only in the last couple phases, a perfectly valid approach. As most if not all of the bonsai techniques needed for the first phases of bonsai are at least occasionally used in the final, fully developed phases. You only learn the "totality of bonsai" if you are maintaining a few trees in the exhibition phase and a few more trees in the various cycles of style, grow out, then style again, then grow out. If you never exhibit a tree, you will miss out on the display aspect of bonsai.

Key to this is as your seedling begin to demand more time, and move to the next phase, thin them out, reduce their numbers, or they will distract you from providing time for the more mature trees.

A well rounded bonsai education includes all phases of bonsai. To learn the totality of bonsai is an education that requires a lifetime. But we can have fun, learning what we can, and learn the most if our collection includes trees at different stages of development. Save up, go out and get a more mature tree than the ones you have. You will be glad you did.

Thank you for this response. These are the most competent and thoughtful words I’ve read thus far in my short journey in the practice. Throughout my experience I will undoubtedly reference this post. Looking forward to receiving your critique when I get to posting some trees in the later stages of the craft. Thanks again.
 
@rockm and I have debated this topic too. @Lou T you are on track.
Bonsai consists of several phases, and different techniques are used in each of the phases. The growing from seed to and through the pre-bonsai phase have a fairly limited number of techniques that are also used in the later phases of developing bonsai. @rockm is right, raising a seedling will not teach you much at all about training a near mature bonsai or maintaining an exhibit ready bonsai. So little in common that RockM prefers to think of this phase as not really being bonsai at all. It is the nurseryman's phase of raising bonsai, absolutely necessary for someone to do if RockM or anyone else are to have any trees to practice the later phases of bonsai techniques upon, but really, very few of the techniques have much in common with the techniques of styling and maintaining exhibit quality bonsai. Yes, one or two applications of wire, some root pruning, some branch pruning,, but overall if a seedling gets 15 minutes per year of ''bonsai technique'' it gets a lot. So RockM is right, raising seedlings won't teach you about handling other phases of bonsai. I do however consider the ''nurseryman's phase'' of raising seedlings as truly part of bonsai. And I enjoy it.

The process of developing pre-bonsai, through the middle stages, through several cycles of style, shape, wire, prune, train, then allow to grow out, then repeat the style, prune and train, then grow out - this middle phase is very important, most consider it ''real bonsai work'', but it is not the totality of bonsai technique either. Here you are doing wiring, pruning, grafting if needed, root pruning, and otherwise shaping your trees, but learning everything you need to know in this phase will not inform you how to handle a mature, exhibition ready tree.

Maintaining an exhibition worthy tree is a whole separate body of knowledge, you stop with the grafting that belongs to earlier phases, major pruning and other styling activities, as style is set. Your wiring and pruning is for fine detail, rarely are you using the larger gauges of wire, your focus is creating or maintaining the foliage pads. This is the phase where pinching is an approved activity at certain times, just before show time. The cycle of moving the tree to the exhibition pot, then back to the ''everyday pot'' is something that few get the chance to practice. This is bonsai at its highest level.

And then there is the art of display, the right pot, the right stand, the right kusamono the correct little sculptures or stones. This is a whole field of study that you can spend years learning and never touch a tree. Kusamono is a whole horticultural adventure in and of itself. The art of display, matching all the elements, is a whole body of knowledge of enormous depth.

So if you are new to bonsai, where do you put your efforts? If money were no object? I would put a lot of more my effort into the last 2 phases of bonsai. A really thoughtful student of bonsai would put some effort into all phases. Put some effort, maybe 10% of your time into seedlings, put some effort, maybe 20% into developing landscape nursery stock & collected stock. Put maybe 30 % of your time into stock that has matured enough to have gone through several cycles of styling and grow out. And finally put the rest of your time, here would be 40% into exhibition ready and near exhibition ready trees.

How would this look, seedlings don't take much effort, so with 10% of my time I could have maybe 50 seedlings. Pre-bonsai take a bit more work, but not that much, I could probably keep 10 or 20 going and still put only 20% of my time into them. Trees in regular cycles of styling and then growing out, these are MUCH more work. One could easily spend a full 6 or 8 hour day working on a Hinoki, or Juniper or Stewartia in this phase. To keep to 30% of your time, you might be able to handle at most around 10 trees in this phase.

The final, mature phase - here these trees can be very demanding of detailed care to keep them exhibition ready. As Adair has documented, it can take 2 days just removing old needles from a mature, full size JBP. Then the detail wiring can take another 2 days, yes 16 hours or so. So to keep 40% of your time on exhibit ready trees, it is possible that your will only be able to keep 2 or 3 trees in this phase of development.

So if someone where new to bonsai, and had the good fortune to be pretty much horticulturally competent in as far as the basics goes. That is how I would split it up. A number of sticks in pots, a smaller number of further along pre-bonsai. A handful of fully developed trees, past their first styling, and a couple exhibition ready trees. This is the only way you can learn all phases of bonsai, by having trees in all phases of the hobby.

Some like RockM, prefer to work only in the last couple phases, a perfectly valid approach. As most if not all of the bonsai techniques needed for the first phases of bonsai are at least occasionally used in the final, fully developed phases. You only learn the "totality of bonsai" if you are maintaining a few trees in the exhibition phase and a few more trees in the various cycles of style, grow out, then style again, then grow out. If you never exhibit a tree, you will miss out on the display aspect of bonsai.

Key to this is as your seedling begin to demand more time, and move to the next phase, thin them out, reduce their numbers, or they will distract you from providing time for the more mature trees.

A well rounded bonsai education includes all phases of bonsai. To learn the totality of bonsai is an education that requires a lifetime. But we can have fun, learning what we can, and learn the most if our collection includes trees at different stages of development. Save up, go out and get a more mature tree than the ones you have. You will be glad you did.
If there were ever a “Hall of Fame” of quality posts, this post should be the first one inducted!

@bonsainut, please make a category of “HoF” posts!
 
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