Tempted to grab this little guy. Thoughts?

[artao]

So in some sand dunes the other day, I came across this little guy but ended up leaving it there.
I haven't been able to get it out of my mind now tho, and am thinking I'll just go back and get it.
I mean, it's not like it stands much of a chance where it is, in that condition. I highly doubt the people who drive ATVs all over the place are going to deliberately avoid the poor little thing.
I'm thinking this is a Norway Spruce. Am I mistaken? As I understand, they aren't the greatest for a bonsai beginner such as myself. Still tho, I think it stands a high chance of dying regardless, so I may as well give it an honest shot under my care.
I think it has some great character tho. It looks to me like that lower branch, even tho it's broken, has enough of a connection from the bottom to continue to support growth on that branch. As such, I figure I could peel off the bark on the upper side for some shari, not to mention the breakpoint at the top for some jin. And then there's the huge diameter change between the base and the tip.
This would be my second tree. (Altho I also plan to collect a paper birch and some staghorn sumac this week as well. Maybe an oak.) My first being a red cedar that is currently just sitting for a season to recover and grow in a bit, so not much for me to do with that one this year. Maybe I could wire it I suppose?
This small broken spruce tho, I figure that it would be QUITE easy to dig out of that very loose, very dry sand. Then immediately put it in a training pot with some bonsai soil (which I plan to make from locally collected materials. Spagnum moss, pine bark, and gravel (limestone I think) and/or river sand sifted for coarser material. I'm in zone 4b/5a, so I need material that can withstand the cold here without breaking down.
I think if this poor little tree lived, it has some pretty good potential. Thoughts?

Quick look at the tree, from one angle:

(larger images are large so they can be zoomed well into to look at breakage detail)
https://images2.imgbox.com/be/1c/fI3Z4LRJ_o.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------
https://images2.imgbox.com/0c/8b/LTFgNXVw_o.jpg

 

[M. Frary]

This small broken spruce tho, I figure that it would be QUITE easy to dig out of that very loose, very dry sand

It's going to be way harder than you think.
Roots tend to grow long in search of water when in sand.
Sand tends to just fall off when you dig a tree up.
You want to keep as much of that sand in place when you dig it up. You replace it right away and the tree dies. It needs t to recover.
You can wet the sand real well n hopes of t staying in place when you dig.
It's also the wrong time. Next spring when the buds start swelling is best.
Your winters aren't that bad.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I don't think this looks too promising...

Looks like a spruce of some sort or other. Don't even consider the tree until you can dig down and reveal the nebari and surface roots. They may be non-existent and the tree may just have a single tap root that goes straight down to oblivion. What I can see of the tree doesn't look too good because the trunk consists of a telephone pole straight section and a broken primary branch that is unusable due to the scar/break that didn't heal.

When collecting from the wild the first thing you look for is good surface roots and good trunk line with good taper. Since most young trees grow ruler straight, the trees that show movement and character in their lower trunks are the most valuable.

 

[BrianBay9]

Agreed. Focus on the first 6 to 12 inches from the roots up. First, gotta find the roots.....

 

[Cadillactaste]

I just don't see a tree worth messing with. Would love to see you do a virtual of what you see in it.

Let alone what was mentioned above.

 

[artao]

I just don't see a tree worth messing with. Would love to see you do a virtual of what you see in it.

Let alone what was mentioned above.

That's a great idea. I'll go ahead and do that ......... also for the juniperus virginiana that I already have (posted in a different thread)
Basically, I'm seeing it as a tilted windswept form, with shari on that bent broken branch. I also quite like the pretty extreme taper on it.
(To others) Actually, that break DID heal fairly well. I think. Zoom in on the large pics I posted in the first post up there. You can see the healing on the break pretty clearly.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I REALLY don't think this little guy stands a chance where it is.
Thanks!

 

[bonsaichile]

It is not a tilted windswept form. At best, it would be an L shaped tree, something that will never look good. Maybe you should loom for trees that emerge from the ground at an angle and that show some movement (curves) on the trunk rather than this straight trunks you have been showing us later. An important part of the yamadori search is not just the tree, but the search itself, which has links with zen buddhist philosophy. Enjoy the search, and do not be captivated by the first small tree you see. You might learn more about bonsai design than you think!
Good luck
Pd. Dont forget that all trees belong to someone, even if it is the state (aka all of us!). Dont forget to get the permits you need before collection

 

[artao]

It is not a tilted windswept form. At best, it would be an L shaped tree, something that will never look good. Maybe you should loom for trees that emerge from the ground at an angle and that show some movement (curves) on the trunk rather than this straight trunks you have been showing us later. An important part of the yamadori search is not just the tree, but the search itself, which has links with zen buddhist philosophy. Enjoy the search, and do not be captivated by the first small tree you see. You might learn more about bonsai design than you think!
Good luck
Pd. Dont forget that all trees belong to someone, even if it is the state (aka all of us!). Dont forget to get the permits you need before collection

Oh, I'm not being captivated by the first tree I see. I'm wandering around for several hours looking at trees, and just enjoying being out in nature and away from my computer and actually getting some exercise. It's giving me a very different perspective on nature than I've previously had. Looking much closer at the trees. I've forgotten SO MUCH about tree identification since I got my forestry merit badge when I was still a youngun.
I know it's not tilted NOW. But I've seen numerous vids and articles where people tilt the pot to tilt the tree. And I've seen many examples or gorgeous bonsai with quite straight trunks.
I don't mean to be argumentative, and appreciate all the input. But I really am seeing character in this little spruce. It's been on my mind ever since I saw it. I'm pretty confident it'll die where it is anyhow, so at the very least it'd be experience in growing a spruce and keeping it alive. I'm seeing a bonsai in this guy in maybe 5 years I'd reckon. Also, I'm seeing it as shohin, not much bigger than it is right now. I know rod-straight trunks aren't particularly stylish in the bonsai community, but this is just for me, not for show or anything. Just experience really.
And yes, I know I need to get permission. And I have permission. I've also been communicating with the Wisconsin DNR to hopefully get permission to collect trees along the Lower Wisconsin River State Waterway. That would be REALLY awesome, cuz there's cliffs and rock faces and rocky hills ALL OVER the place on the south shore of the river. I know I'd find some really characterful trees there.
I'll make some sketches to show what I'm seeing in these trees, which apparently no one here is seeing like I do.
That juniperus virginiana in my other thread ALSO called to me, and I went back for it after wandering about for several hours. As I check on it and touch it and examine it, I'm pretty confident that it's happy to be with me.
And I certainly don't expect to find a tree to collect every time I go out looking. That's just silly. .................. though I've seen numerous trees that I think would make nice bonsai that I could go back and collect next year. Some nice paper birch specifically. That's one I REALLY REALLY want to do, because paper birch is pretty much my favorite tree. There's also a locust (of some sort) by my apartment's back parking lot, as well as what I THINK is a red mulberry. Again, those are for next year. And I'd have to air gap a branch off of them. (Which, as I understand, I could actually start now ... but won't. That's a bit TOO ambitious. For now. Perhaps next year.) ......... There's also a stand of staghorn sumac which STILL hasn't gone into leaf yet this year. It's not dead tho. I know enough about trees and plants to know THAT much. ..........We've had a pretty crazy spring here. It was just in the mid- to low-40s like 2 weeks ago, and now we have record May temps in the 90s for the last 4 or 5 days. :O
Thanks!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You are in SW Wisconsin, many good species for bonsai around.
That spruce is either a feral - invasive - Norway spruce, Picea abies, or it is the native white spruce Picea glauca. Either are good species for bonsai. The tree in the photos, I would probably pass on rather than collect. It looks to be buried by the sand dune. The roots could be several feet below the surface of the sand. It looks like it will be difficult to get it out of the ground.

Look for Jack pine, Pinus banksiana, common juniper, J. communis, rather than J virginiana, and Larch if you are near any bogs. For deciduous trees look for Hop-Hornbeam - Ostrya virginiana, loose flowered hornbeam - Carpinus caroliniana, red maple Acer rubrum. any of the many Hawthorn species, Crataegus. Amelanchier - the Service berries or Saskatoons, and many many more, but this list all make good bonsai.

From landscape nurseries look for Amur maples.

 

[rockm]

That's a great idea. I'll go ahead and do that ......... also for the juniperus virginiana that I already have (posted in a different thread)
Basically, I'm seeing it as a tilted windswept form, with shari on that bent broken branch. I also quite like the pretty extreme taper on it.
(To others) Actually, that break DID heal fairly well. I think. Zoom in on the large pics I posted in the first post up there. You can see the healing on the break pretty clearly.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I REALLY don't think this little guy stands a chance where it is.
Thanks!

Not worth the trouble. Not all that interesting. Long straight trunk and long straight branches.

"Rescuing" a tree because you don't think it will live in the wild is a nice thought, but its also a big reason NOT to collect it. People think a lot of things in nature need to be rescued when they're better left alone. There isn't really a compelling reason to lift the tree for bonsai--and you will definitely be putting its life in jeopardy in doing so. In other words, the tree would be moving from the frying pan into the fire...

If it's still on your mind AFTER you have successfully collected a few trees, then you might try it. I have a feeling that it won't be in a few years as you find better material.

 

[artao]

You are in SW Wisconsin, many good species for bonsai around.
That spruce is either a feral - invasive - Norway spruce, Picea abies, or it is the native white spruce Picea glauca. Either are good species for bonsai. The tree in the photos, I would probably pass on rather than collect. It looks to be buried by the sand dune. The roots could be several feet below the surface of the sand. It looks like it will be difficult to get it out of the ground.

Look for Jack pine, Pinus banksiana, common juniper, J. communis, rather than J virginiana, and Larch if you are near any bogs. For deciduous trees look for Hop-Hornbeam - Ostrya virginiana, loose flowered hornbeam - Carpinus caroliniana, red maple Acer rubrum. any of the many Hawthorn species, Crataegus. Amelanchier - the Service berries or Saskatoons, and many many more, but this list all make good bonsai.

From landscape nurseries look for Amur maples.

The bark of the spruce makes me think Norway Spruce .... my tree ID skills are rather poor these days tho. I've forgotten most of what I learned in Boy Scouts.
I'm keeping my eye out for communis, but this virginiana just ...... called to me. I swear it WANTED me to bring it home LOL
At any rate, I have it now and shall endeavor to the best of my abilities to keep it alive. Thankfully, it's QUITE robust and can put up with most abuse I may throw at it.
I mean ...... It got run over by a freakin front end loader! ...... I can't do much worse to it eh. LOL
But yeah.
I've been surprised to learn just how many species around here are suitable for bonsai. Next year I'll be collecting several more.
I still intend to go get some staghorn sumac tho, that has STILL not produced leaves (tho they have buds). ... They grow like weeds around here, and people cut them down like weeds as well. HORRIBLE for people with allergens. When them "staghorns" are ready to blow into pollen? WOW!! Just TOUCH 'em and they burst into a cloud of pollen.
And I've read that they are pretty hardy and can make a decent bonsai. Right from the get go, a lot of them look pretty aged. Gnarly and twisted.
They're also pretty nice to sleep under ......... unless spiders have decided to live in them. Usually orb weavers. I've walked thru several LOL ....... thankfully, I don't mind spiders. Orb weaver, while crazy looking, are harmless. Just creepy.

 

[rockm]

I don't think this looks too promising...

Looks like a spruce of some sort or other. Don't even consider the tree until you can dig down and reveal the nebari and surface roots. They may be non-existent and the tree may just have a single tap root that goes straight down to oblivion. What I can see of the tree doesn't look too good because the trunk consists of a telephone pole straight section and a broken primary branch that is unusable due to the scar/break that didn't heal.

When collecting from the wild the first thing you look for is good surface roots and good trunk line with good taper. Since most young trees grow ruler straight, the trees that show movement and character in their lower trunks are the most valuable.

There will probably be no appreciable nebari on this tree. What you will have will probably a multi-level root system stuck on a straight stick that extends into the ground a couple of feet...

 

[artao]

There will probably be no appreciable nebari on this tree. What you will have will probably a multi-level root system stuck on a straight stick that extends into the ground a couple of feet...

I'll hafta go back and dig a little to expose the roots.
If that's the case then yeah, I won't dig it up.
Still, I doubt it'll last another year. ATVs apparently LOVE to drive all over them sand dunes. Plus partiers and dogs and kids. And I don't blame 'em. Looks like a BLAST. And there's TONS AND TONS (literally) of these trees growing there. Them and some sort of oak. Not sure which. Many of those look rather nice as well. And a couple very nice paper birch stands. (Tho my parents ALSO have a very VERY nice stand of birch. I think. Might be poplar. And, if birch, might be river birch, not paper birch)
Them sand dunes are surrounded by residential homes. Which, IMO, is a damn shame. Cuz this sand dune area is one of THE LAST such areas in the region. It's clearly pretty old, considering the pine growth (and perhaps moreso death) and a couple other regional semi-dune areas. I STRONGLY suspect these sand dune areas were at one point all connected. Then humans moved in and split 'em up into sections and built houses and roads and grew crops. NOW, there's almost no sand dune areas like this left around here.
I'd think such areas would be better protected and preserved. But nope. Sad. Oh well. What can I do?
I really want a birch. Next year tho. Next year. PATIENCE!!! ......... That's one of the reasons I decided to start bonsai, after thinking about doing it for almost a decade now. Wow. Really? THAT long? ......... :O .... yep
I'm more on the taoist level than the zen level .... tho they ARE quite similar. Zen is more meditative tho. Taoist is a bit more active, to a degree (not that there's not meditativeness there. ... zen actually developed pretty directly from a combo of taoism and chinese buddhism)

 

[artao]

I've taken A BUNCH of pics as I wander about in these areas. Just cool lookin' stuff, not necessarily for collecting.
Which sub-forum would be best to post those in?

 

[Cadillactaste]

I've taken A BUNCH of pics as I wander about in these areas. Just cool lookin' stuff, not necessarily for collecting.
Which sub-forum would be best to post those in?

Tea house...if not bonsai related.
Edit...spell check changed my word.

 

[Cable]

First, are you allowed to take it?

Second, if you dig it up now it will most likely die. It's completely the wrong season for that even if it turns out that there is solid soil beneath the sand.

All that said, IF you're allowed to collect and it means that much to you I say go nuts. Practice trees are a good thing. Just keep point 2 in mind.

 

[Silentrunning]

Being it is in a sand doon with nothing close to it, it could be a 20 foot tall tree that is buried in sand.

 

[artao]

First, are you allowed to take it?

Second, if you dig it up now it will most likely die. It's completely the wrong season for that even if it turns out that there is solid soil beneath the sand.

All that said, IF you're allowed to collect and it means that much to you I say go nuts. Practice trees are a good thing. Just keep point 2 in mind.

OF COURSE I'm getting permission for this. I'm not a jerk
I somehow doubt it will be there next year really. A full summer and fall of ATV riders? Yeah .... not so good for this li'l guy.

 

[artao]

Being it is in a sand doon with nothing close to it, it could be a 20 foot tall tree that is buried in sand.

Yeah.
I'll go uncover the roots tomorrow or thursday and see what they look like. If crappy? No collect. If decent? Bring it home with me. ....... Honestly, from responses, I'm expecting crappy roots. Probably a tap root running sideways toward the well established trees near it I reckon. That, of course, would make it a no-go.
And yeah, only like 10 feet to the side there is a WELL established bunch of spruce and pine.

 

[artao]

Not suitable. Leaving it be.
Please consider this thread closed.
Thanks for all the input.