Substrate, wooden boxes, pond baskets & colanders

[Potawatomi13]

No kakadama Expensive crap turns to mud! Pumice(sifted)is King. 25-35% organic for broadleaves. No plastic baskets. Tree dries too fast in summer heat and dies. Auto H2O systems? Single failure will convince of stupidity of over reliance on these.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Substrate largely depends on climate and the quality of medium you can acquire. Apparently low quality products find their way to pots way too easy. Once had one bad bag akadama, gave it back and the whole stock was returned by the owner.

 

[Japonicus]

@Japonicus, it seems like you've gotten a lot of good advice regarding soil mixes and components. What i do hope you are seeing in this thread is that you can save a lot of money by mixing your own. I just picked up 7 gallons each of red lava and pumice. They are screened and clean and of the most amazingly consistent size and absolutely no waste. None! Total cost $14. Way better than the bags I used to get in San Diego, which had about 25% dust. So at my club, a guy sells akadama for $34 for 17 liters (4 gal. Give or take?) and another sells diatomite rock for $30 (25 lbs. roughly 20+ liters). So total we're talking $112 (2 bags of akadama) in materials for over 27 gallons of mix. So you can see how much money you save by mixing yourself.

The bonus is you can vary it a little to suit different species or trees. For my deciduous I throw a little fine bark and extra akadama. For a big heavy tree more pumice and less red lava. For a cascade, may add a little decomposed granite or fine pebble to help keep the pot heavier. Lots of options and way less money.

Thanks Gsquared. Sure, it is less expensive to make your own. I'd always bought extra akadama for retaining more water and added to the pre mix.
Now that's beginning to multiply the cost, because there's is no, bonsai supply of anything save for poultry granite, which is surprisingly clean and uniform.
That's the only thing I can save $$ on with no shipping. I have to order everything and 50# don't ship free.

So maybe there's a favourite online retailer that supples most of what I would need that some have tried, that has quality sizing and shipping that doesn't get me back
close to the pre mix cost. I've done the math before, ordering from the same place when they stocked the items separately (they don't now) and I saved too little to not get it mixed.
Ok, so I just tried at Eastern Leaf, their sizing is too limited, to meld uniformly. The akadama medium size is bigger than the lava and pumice, which forces me to make multiple
check outs (different vendors) and hope for the best when they all get here if I want to use the medium sized akadama. Any way, to go 1:1:1 with the sizes then buy the cherry stone granite
I can make 10 gallons for the price of that 5g bucket pre mix, plus save a few more dollars. Then I like some pine bark to add in for my junipers and cypress. It was being used for my pines too
in the premix, so that does whittle away at the savings a little more, but maybe I can come close to doubling my volume for same cost?
That still leaves me with wrong sizing at Eastern Leaf, as there's nothing local. So back to the question of tried and true vendors you might chime in on.
Have a swell weekend!

 

[Japonicus]

No kakadama Expensive crap turns to mud! Pumice(sifted)is King. 25-35% organic for broadleaves. No plastic baskets. Tree dries too fast in summer heat and dies. Auto H2O systems? Single failure will convince of stupidity of over reliance on these.

Hi Potawatomi. Are you saying your conifers get sifted pumice as the only substrate component?
I agree on failures. There's been many a ATO auto top off system fail to shut off and do untold damage to a nice reef system.
However, there are multiple fail safe back ups, that can help with that. For many years I refused to use an ATO, gravity drip only, then when I added an ATO
with a photo cell for the main level monitor, and a 2ndary back up mechanical float, I attained the best SG stability I ever had.
The auto systems sounded curious, and I have no idea how sophisticated they've evolved for bonsai whether monitor probes were used or not.
Like they only work when it's at a preset minimum moisture level and shut off when a maximum level had been reached.

So instead, I plan to incorporate some shade cloth this year, mostly for the pots, plus begin a couple wooden pots.
I like using window screen (plastic) in the bottom of my pots. Easy peasy cut to fit pot, no wiring it in. Keeps mealy bugs out too. That ok?

 

[bonsaidave]

I setup a cheap auto water system last year. I have it run two hours before I leave for work. That way I can go do a quick check before leaving each morning. I had a failure last year so check every day if you set one up. 1 summer day will kill trees.

I mix my soil though I don't get the prices as low as some on here. I reuse soil from repotting too. Usually mix about half used half new soil. Though I don't have any fancy trees so they don't mind.
http ://www.americanbonsai.com runs 20% off site wide on black Friday weekend. They also have free shipping on orders over 99$. Not a bad deal. I usually pickup some soil and wire. Good people to buy from any time though. Check them out.

I get free pots throughout the year from building sites. Landscape people don't always let me have their empty pots but it never hurts to ask. You just need one or two big scores and you are set. I cut the pots down to the size I need and use some window screen to cover the large drainage holes.
Watch for sales at locally owned garden and landscape places. Sometimes they have piles of old plastic pots they would be willing to sell.
I get small 4-5 inch pots from Amazon. 100 of them run about $20. Last me a couple years and good for seedlings.
Some Home Depot's have reject or damaged wood that is 70% off. I hit one every week to see if there is anything I can use.

Think outside the box and have fun!

 

[Tieball]

I use http://www.bonsaijack.com
I am impressed with their customer service....and email reply to questions. Their bags of substrate are about 99% usable. There’s always some fine particles...from shipping and handling. The products they offer have worked very well for me. I use a lot of their Bonsai Block substrate also....and very happy with the choice for quite awhile.

 

[Vance Wood]

I use napa8822 D.E. and lava in everything.
Colanders are all off of the ground. Putting them on or in the ground defeats the whole purpose. May as well leave them in a bucket.
Never used a grow box. For larger collected trees I use nursery buckets. After the tree has recovered I trim roots down to fit in the colander.
I water once per day. Bonsai pots,colanders,buckets,whatever.
Once you figure out your soil mix that works for you,you learn how to adjust it for each tree species.

The important thing is you figure out your soil mix that works for you.

 

[Japonicus]

I setup a cheap auto water system last year. I have it run two hours before I leave for work. That way I can go do a quick check before leaving each morning. I had a failure last year so check every day if you set one up. 1 summer day will kill trees.

I mix my soil though I don't get the prices as low as some on here. I reuse soil from repotting too. Usually mix about half used half new soil. Though I don't have any fancy trees so they don't mind.
http ://www.americanbonsai.com runs 20% off site wide on black Friday weekend. They also have free shipping on orders over 99$. Not a bad deal. I usually pickup some soil and wire. Good people to buy from any time though. Check them out.

I get free pots throughout the year from building sites. Landscape people don't always let me have their empty pots but it never hurts to ask. You just need one or two big scores and you are set. I cut the pots down to the size I need and use some window screen to cover the large drainage holes.
Watch for sales at locally owned garden and landscape places. Sometimes they have piles of old plastic pots they would be willing to sell.
I get small 4-5 inch pots from Amazon. 100 of them run about $20. Last me a couple years and good for seedlings.
Some Home Depot's have reject or damaged wood that is 70% off. I hit one every week to see if there is anything I can use.

Think outside the box and have fun!

Hi Dave. Agreed on saving with damaged wood. One big box store here takes up to 90% off on a good day for damaged lumber.
I made this stand and canopy doing just that saving quite a bit really.



Good to hear someone else uses window screen. I have a roll of the screen left over I use more for bonsai than repairing screens.

Thanks for the American bonsai link! Cheers-

 

[Tieball]

The important thing is you figure out your soil mix that works for you.

That’s the best approach. Research...Ask questions...Listen....Then make your choices for your needs and wants. And don’t always second guess your choices when you have a mix that works.

 

[Japonicus]

I use http://www.bonsaijack.com
I am impressed with their customer service....and email reply to questions. Their bags of substrate are about 99% usable. There’s always some fine particles...from shipping and handling. The products they offer have worked very well for me. I use a lot of their Bonsai Block substrate also....and very happy with the choice for quite awhile.

Thanks Tieball. How is is their Monto clay. Calcined clay is harder than akadama I believe and holds up longer, less moisture?
If this were used for the akadama ratio part, on their site I'm up to probably just over $100 for 8g including 2g of Fir or Pine bark to toy with.
This is a good selling point...
"Did you know?
All of our soil products are state inspected and tested on a regular basis in order to comply with multi-state regulations.
This ensures you receive material free of dangerous pathogens that can damage or kill plants.
This is also required to maintain six nursery stamps that allow us to ship to all 50 states."

 

[substratum]

Haven’t seen any mention of cypress wood for grow boxes. Is there any downside to that species? It’s pretty abundant in this neck of the woods, and can often be purchased in rough cut boards at smaller saw mills for a reasonable price.

 

[Tieball]

Thanks Tieball. How is is their Monto clay. Calcined clay is harder than akadama I believe and holds up longer, less moisture?
If this were used for the akadama ratio part, on their site I'm up to probably just over $100 for 8g including 2g of Fir or Pine bark to toy with.
This is a good selling point...
"Did you know?
All of our soil products are state inspected and tested on a regular basis in order to comply with multi-state regulations.
This ensures you receive material free of dangerous pathogens that can damage or kill plants.
This is also required to maintain six nursery stamps that allow us to ship to all 50 states."

Monto Clay....I don’t know. But in conversations with the owner he highly recommended the Monto Clay for what I needed. I didn’t order any only because I have a significant amount of Bonsai Block to use. I’m considering for future orders. But I also have to say I’m very happy with the Bonsai Block. At the time of the discussion I was asking about a replacement for Turface use in my mixing.

I add some aged Pine Bark....I have these huge bags I bought when Aged Pine Bark was only about $9 for a huge bag. A good buy back then....for my needs today.

Yes....their process...to me...is a great selling point. I have not found anyone else that could state those facts....and really deliver. My excellent experience with their products, and confidence in their manufacturing conditions, keeps me returning.

 

[Japonicus]

The important thing is you figure out your soil mix that works for you.

Exactly, then they delete it...POOF!

Hey Vance. So I'm considering changing things up a bit, and going out on a limb is nice to have input from those that have tried it. Whatever it is.
Mikes 8822 DE suggestion could replace akadama I think. If there's a thread on here breaking down individual components do tell please.
I just wouldn't bare root into anything into an unfamiliar mix or go hog wild ya know. Hard to unwrap my mind from around the akadama portion
and feels chancy omitting it all together.

 

[Tieball]

@substratum
Cyprus wood....Should work very well actually....I just don’t have that wood around me. Here’s what they, the wood experts, say:
“Rot Resistance: Old-growth Cypress is rated as being durable to very durable in regards to decay resistance, while wood from younger trees is only rated as moderately durable. ... Cypress has good gluing, nailing, finishing, and paint-holding properties.”

“Cypress wood contains a natural preservative that is both rot and insect resistant. ... Cypress is also a very stable wood, with little shrinking or swelling throughout the changing seasons. While cypress is a good choice for outdoor furniture, it may be a little difficult to find due to the scarcity of mature trees.”

Go for it. Share some photos. I think the boxes will look fabulous.

 

[Japonicus]

Haven’t seen any mention of cypress wood for grow boxes. Is there any downside to that species? It’s pretty abundant in this neck of the woods, and can often be purchased in rough cut boards at smaller saw mills for a reasonable price.

Home where I grew up had Cypress siding. The Carpenter Bees loved it. Cypress able to grow in water, no doubt a best choice. Good idea substratum.

 

[M. Frary]

Mikes 8822 DE suggestion could replace akadama I think

It is what I consider a replacement for akadama.
I'm going to try some pumice in my mix if I can this year.
Then it will be D.E.,lava and pumice.
Boon mix but with a twist. For the better.
I'm going to call it Godzilla mix. It has a nice ring to it and the name tells someone that it's badass stuff.
Just like the king of the monsters. Badass.

 

[Japonicus]

Monto Clay....I don’t know. But in conversations with the owner he highly recommended the Monto Clay for what I needed. I didn’t order any only because I have a significant amount of Bonsai Block to use. I’m considering for future orders. But I also have to say I’m very happy with the Bonsai Block. At the time of the discussion I was asking about a replacement for Turface use in my mixing.

I add some aged Pine Bark....I have these huge bags I bought when Aged Pine Bark was only about $9 for a huge bag. A good buy back then....for my needs today.

Yes....their process...to me...is a great selling point. I have not found anyone else that could state those facts....and really deliver. My excellent experience with their products, and confidence in their manufacturing conditions, keeps me returning.

Good to know your experience and satisfaction with them and their product for sure. Thanks for sharing that.
Not having a local source, that's what I was looking for.
I'm going with the Fir bark since it's supposed to last a little longer than Pine bark. Visually attractive too.
Hopefully my wife continues down the same road, lasts longer and visually attractive too.

The Monto clay is Turface, just at 1/4" size, and legally cannot call it Turface. Same product.
So, that brings me to life expectancy of the product. The bark will break down, akadama would too.
So if using both of these, the soil break down will increase that much more. What's the deal with Turface
or in this case 1/4" Turface called Montmorillonite Calcined Clay ?
Does it out perform akadama?

 

[Japonicus]

It is what I consider a replacement for akadama.
I'm going to try some pumice in my mix if I can this year.
Then it will be D.E.,lava and pumice.
Boon mix but with a twist. For the better.
I'm going to call it Godzilla mix. It has a nice ring to it and the name tells someone that it's badass stuff.
Just like the king of the monsters. Badass.

Agreed with Potawatomi expensive mud!
I like it Mike Boon with a twist, which is sorta what I'm angling for except the added organics
to a happy medium is my quest.

Picking up a 24qt bag of the 8822 later today. Also adding to cart 2g ea of maroon lava, pumice and Fir bark.
Maybe another diversity, like Cherry Stone grit and or the calcined clay, maybe? I think the Cherry Stone will suffice
with the 8822 in there, and weight down the pots. It's pretty cost effective too.
Let the fun begin. Now I need to start a journal and order some tags and wire too.
Bad ass Godzilla Twist

 

[Japonicus]

How does the soil become acidic in toxicity levels associated with sizing of components settling?

The 8822 DE is 1/2 the size of the other components except maybe the granite.
Should I continue to use it regardless of smaller particle size, or scrub the idea
and stick only with uniformity?

 

[Anthony]

@Japonicus ,

look up the Ball Bearing Principle and get a jar of same size marbles
See how they touch.
Good Day
Anthony

growing in 3 mm glass spheres