Substrate, wooden boxes, pond baskets & colanders

[Gaitano]

Here is a Japanese maple air layer that was placed into a grow box in the spring of 2016. I did not repot in 2017. This is the root ball today. Notice the sides and in the middle where there is heavy root accumulation compared to the middle sections where the root pad sat on top of the screening. The roots were air pruned. The soil was 1:1:1 akadama, lava, pumice.

 

[M. Frary]

Imagine what those roots would look like if the sides were mesh.

 

[Gaitano]

After cleaning out some of the soil and trimming the pad back.

 

[Japonicus]

My mix is as follows:
20% Akadama
40 %Horticultural Pumice
20% Black Lava
20 % Granite Grit
For grow boxes i use either the Anderson deep propagation flat or wooden grow box.
For building material i use pine or cedar fence boards.
Dimensions are 3/4" thick called a 1 by 6 by 6 ft long

Hey Frank! The cedar fencing slats sounds good. Might be able to recoup some of the wasted material
by buying inside in the lumber dept. Not being milled should save a few bucks too.

Granite Grit, is that like what you can buy for poultry at the co-op store?

Here's a couple pics of the soil I have right now. The akadama has hardened back up having dried out.
I used what I did last year while this mix was still damp out of the bucket. I've top dressed a couple
pots and didn't pay attention to the moisture content over the year. I suppose the mix is ok
and I should add maybe some granite or other aggregate. The granite grit I'm thinking of though for poultry
is crumbly when thumb nail is pressed into it but very uniform in size, mostly white.

Notice the larger 25% waste I sieved out in the 1g freezer bag.
Many particles are 1/2" and I found a 1.25" whopper nug.

Really not a bad soil, but I need to learn to make it myself and save a bit I hope
and with less waste.

The Tiny Roots Conifer has a noted increase in organics and geared down more for smaller trees.
It works in a pinch, and not bad to fill in with, later when needed i.e. after maintenance.
I'd never tried it. Saw it at a local garden years ago, decided to give it a whorl.

 

[Gaitano]

Use the soil components sifted over 1/4" for the bottom layer of your pots. A single layer on the bottom of your pot. Not wasted!

 

[Japonicus]

I use napa8822 D.E. and lava in everything.
Colanders are all off of the ground. Putting them on or in the ground defeats the whole purpose. May as well leave them in a bucket.
Never used a grow box. For larger collected trees I use nursery buckets. After the tree has recovered I trim roots down to fit in the colander.
I water once per day. Bonsai pots,colanders,buckets,whatever.
Once you figure out your soil mix that works for you,you learn how to adjust it for each tree species.

Hiya Mike! The napa8822 D.E. I will search other threads on here for that. I see at least one in a search already.
Couple questions on the Diatomaceous Earth though.
How do folks say it retains nutrients, in a positive way I assume since you promote it.
How would this DE fair in a prolonged rainy year, or I mean how would the tree fair.
It probably comes down to Tempur Pedic vs Sleep Number analogy and an artist makes the most
out of whatever tools he has. This product you mention, does have my attention in a good way
as a tool to retain moisture longer...
...that said, high heat and the moisture...might we steam the roots?
I forget what thread it was now, but someone had a meat thermometer in their soil at 105ºF outdoors
and the soil was like 80º then later was baking hot. Forget the temp now, but really high.
Vance was in on the thread.
Anyway, this is my 1st exposure to the idea here today.
How would you adjust the soil in my pictures, for a more humid higher heat than you have there
to begin with to experiment with the DE?

 

[Japonicus]

Use the soil components sifted over 1/4" for the bottom layer of your pots. A single layer on the bottom of your pot. Not wasted!

The bottom layer is one of those ideas that has been tossed back n forth for years.
It may boil down to a texture thing that's neither right or wrong, but I prefer to use a uniform mix.
There's an increase in volume of the finer roots, and I retain more moisture, rather than giving a platform
for my roots to grow larger and maybe dry the finer feeder roots faster, is my thinking, and congruous
with the Bonsai Monk soil I would make if I had an accurate break down of the ingredients and ratios, and sizing.

I will save the larger ones for in-ground containers. Fair enough?
It just doesn't pot up my above ground pots without losing 25% (1 out of 5, oops that's 20% my math Ugg)
which is what I was buying it for.

 

[Anthony]

Guys, do me a favor check for Chemical drop out in solution with
Granite and Basalt.

We have mountains of road material. that are either granite or basalt chips.
Good size after light sifting for Bonsai soil use.
Trouble is the Tamarind [ acid soil producer ] does not like the material.
It may be decomposing with K20, Na20 or other.

Trees that grow on natural lava flows would probably have no problem
with the stuff.
But those accustomed to older more decomposed soils might have problems.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Japonicus]

Wood boxes. I use treated wood. Basically 1 x 6 and 1 x 2 and then 2 x 2 for the lift off the table legs. I used Cedar in the past. I found cedar to not weather that well actually and it seems to attract a lot of moss growth...especially on the ends. The treated woood boxes I have last a long time....well the first box I made is still in use after almost 7 years. The trees in the boxes do well. Actually, whether Cedar or Treated, the trees do well...the treated just lasts longer and holds up better in my climate. I’ve never had a growing problem with treated wood...my roots grow just fine and healthy.

For some trees I cut the 1 x 6 wood donw to the equal of a 1 x 4. Just for a more shallow growing container.

The wood gives me greater insulation and root protection whether it’s the summer heat or the belong zero winter. The boxes sit outdoors in rain, snow, sleet... whatever the weather gives up. No warp problems. No deterioration so far.

I have a big ole box of stainless steel screws so that’s what I use for assembly. I don’t like nails for boxes. Screws hold much better...and more easily removed when necessary. Screws can snug up a corner joint must better than a nail.

I line the bottom with 1 x 2 planks screwed to the legs which are long-screwed to the bottom of the sides. Never had a base failure. There is a gap of 1/16” to 1/8” around the entire inside as well as between each plank. Drainage works well. Critters don’t enter through the base planks.

And I like the feel of working with wood. The trees like the boxes very well. I can make a box as big or as small as wanted, however, I have continually used, for the most part, boxes that are about 12” x 13” inside measurements.

Not pictured...I also built a platform that sits on 2 x 2s. The size is just smaller than the inside of the boxes...so I know exactly the root spread size I want to match...and it’s just more fun to work on top of that nifty platform. The platform is made with 2x stock for more heft and weight...sort of like a thick cutting board.View attachment 178010View attachment 178011

Hi Tieball.
Another Michigander. You guys have it tough up there man. Your weather presents its own unique challenges.
Now see there, that's spot on perfect it's like a cooler for your roots. Well, sorta. Nice, nifty!
I know they don't use arsenic in treating lumber anymore, but still, I will shun the treated lumber for now.
Still, I like your project, will out last mine probably. I made one once and drilled a few holes in plywood for the bottom.
I like your idea better. +1 on the 2 rails. I screwed 4 treated feet (blocks) onto mine and the shovel knocked 2 of them
off in the Spring when I dug it up. Easy fix, but still, your rails can be turned to rest on top of or down on a railing
whichever is more sturdy.
Thanks

 

[Japonicus]

Guys, do me a favor check for Chemical drop out in solution with
Granite and Basalt.

We have mountains of road material. that are either granite or basalt chips.
Good size after light sifting for Bonsai soil use.
Trouble is the Tamarind [ acid soil producer ] does not like the material.
It may be decomposing with K20, Na20 or other.

Trees that grow on natural lava flows would probably have no problem
with the stuff.
But those accustomed to older more decomposed soils might have problems.
Good Day
Anthony

Hi Anthony. Good point. I have not used the grit for many years. I got away from it when
I started using the soil from Bonsai Monk. Once I used it there was no turning back, till it was gone...
Any way, that used for poultry should be safe I would think.

 

[Japonicus]

Here is a Japanese maple air layer that was placed into a grow box in the spring of 2016. I did not repot in 2017. This is the root ball today. Notice the sides and in the middle where there is heavy root accumulation compared to the middle sections where the root pad sat on top of the screening. The roots were air pruned. The soil was 1:1:1 akadama, lava, pumice.

I like the wooden box, and your soil looks quite similar to what I have pictured
except I believe yours is at the Boon ratio? Looks great for the maples.
Gaitano, is the 2 Line hard fired Akadama a good choice?

 

[River's Edge]

Hey Frank! The cedar fencing slats sounds good. Might be able to recoup some of the wasted material
by buying inside in the lumber dept. Not being milled should save a few bucks too.

Granite Grit, is that like what you can buy for poultry at the co-op store?

Here's a couple pics of the soil I have right now. The akadama has hardened back up having dried out.
I used what I did last year while this mix was still damp out of the bucket. I've top dressed a couple
pots and didn't pay attention to the moisture content over the year. I suppose the mix is ok
and I should add maybe some granite or other aggregate. The granite grit I'm thinking of though for poultry
is crumbly when thumb nail is pressed into it but very uniform in size, mostly white.

Notice the larger 25% waste I sieved out in the 1g freezer bag.
Many particles are 1/2" and I found a 1.25" whopper nug.

Really not a bad soil, but I need to learn to make it myself and save a bit I hope
and with less waste.

The Tiny Roots Conifer has a noted increase in organics and geared down more for smaller trees.
It works in a pinch, and not bad to fill in with, later when needed i.e. after maintenance.
I'd never tried it. Saw it at a local garden years ago, decided to give it a whorl.

I avoid the black and white or white grits sold as poultry grit. That is because from experience i find they can alter the PH.
The grit i use is sold as turkey grit and a product called "cherry stone" It is a purple grey color with no inclusions. I am sure that it would be simple to test the grit available in your area. You can use a simple aquarium PH test kit. Fill a clean container with water and test the PH to establish a baseline. Then put in a few cups of grit stir and let sit for about 48 hours and then retest the PH.
The rest of your material looks great. The larger particles are useful for a shallow drainage layer below the regular mix.

 

[Japonicus]

I avoid the black and white or white grits sold as poultry grit. That is because from experience i find they can alter the PH.
The grit i use is sold as turkey grit and a product called "cherry stone" It is a purple grey color with no inclusions. I am sure that it would be simple to test the grit available in your area. You can use a simple aquarium PH test kit. Fill a clean container with water and test the PH to establish a baseline. Then put in a few cups of grit stir and let sit for about 48 hours and then retest the PH.
The rest of your material looks great. The larger particles are useful for a shallow drainage layer below the regular mix.

https://www.ebay.com/i/162037436718?chn=ps&watchItemId=162037436718&opid=2385738&pageci=null
Is this what you use? I'm not sure but looks to be black and white.
What is the best Akadama to use?

 

[River's Edge]

https://www.ebay.com/i/162037436718?chn=ps&watchItemId=162037436718&opid=2385738&pageci=null
Is this what you use? I'm not sure but looks to be black and white.
What is the best Akadama to use?

Yes that is the product. I know the graphic looks black and white but it is more of a maroon color. #2 is a good size. That price seems off probably because of the shipping. It is very heavy. I pay $16.50 CAD per 50 lb. bag.
I use a double red line medium particle Hard Akadama. The size and hardness are important, there are likely many brands i know i have tried several. Not sure what is available in your neck of the woods.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

One thing with grow boxes, don't use treated wood.

Not good for the roots!

I would completely agree not to use PT for edible gardening, could you provide more information on how it would compromise root growth in bonsai?

 

[River's Edge]

I would completely agree not to use PT for edible gardening, could you provide more information on how it would compromise root growth in bonsai?

Not sure how Stone Cloud would phrase it. But here is the summary of one study on the new forms of pressure treated wood.
"While Cu is an essential micronutrient, exposure to excess Cu has a detrimental effect on plant growth. The effect of Cu toxicity is largely on root growth and morphology. Copper tends to accumulate in the root tissue with little translocated to the shoots (Marschner, 1995)."
The older pressure treated wood contained arsenic which as you say is not good in the food we eat. The new pressure treated wood has primarily copper compounds and fungicides which can create excess copper accumulation in the soil (toxicity) , more so when the roots come in contact with the PT lumber.

 

[justBonsai]

I'm curious about the effects of treated wood on root growth as well.

In general, wooden grow boxes work very well. Because wood is naturally insulating it can help keep your roots cool during summer months and provide a consistent stable environment.

Posted right after you did above.

 

[Gsquared]

@Japonicus, it seems like you've gotten a lot of good advice regarding soil mixes and components. What i do hope you are seeing in this thread is that you can save a lot of money by mixing your own. I just picked up 7 gallons each of red lava and pumice. They are screened and clean and of the most amazingly consistent size and absolutely no waste. None! Total cost $14. Way better than the bags I used to get in San Diego, which had about 25% dust. So at my club, a guy sells akadama for $34 for 17 liters (4 gal. Give or take?) and another sells diatomite rock for $30 (25 lbs. roughly 20+ liters). So total we're talking $112 (2 bags of akadama) in materials for over 27 gallons of mix. So you can see how much money you save by mixing yourself.

The bonus is you can vary it a little to suit different species or trees. For my deciduous I throw a little fine bark and extra akadama. For a big heavy tree more pumice and less red lava. For a cascade, may add a little decomposed granite or fine pebble to help keep the pot heavier. Lots of options and way less money.

 

[M. Frary]

How do folks say it retains nutrients, in a positive way I assume since you promote it.
How would this DE fair in a prolonged rainy year, or I mean how would the tree fair.

I use the Walter Pall watering and feeding method.
Inorganic soil. Inorganic fertilizer. The fertilizer gets poured once per week at 3 to 5 times the amount prescribed on the box.
I water with a garden hose with a watering wand with a shower head setting. I hose the whole tree until water is gushing out. I only need to water once per day,even when it's the hottest it can get here. Maybe 85,90 midsummer.
Since I water like this I'm sure I wash out every nutrient in the soil or pretty close.
Since I started adding lava to the D.E my trees are doing much better than when they were in just straight D.E
It is cold and rainy here most of the spring and my trees fare just great.
I never worry about overwatering,ever.

 

[StoneCloud]

Not sure how Stone Cloud would phrase it. But here is the summary of one study on the new forms of pressure treated wood.
"While Cu is an essential micronutrient, exposure to excess Cu has a detrimental effect on plant growth. The effect of Cu toxicity is largely on root growth and morphology. Copper tends to accumulate in the root tissue with little translocated to the shoots (Marschner, 1995)."
The older pressure treated wood contained arsenic which as you say is not good in the food we eat. The new pressure treated wood has primarily copper compounds and fungicides which can create excess copper accumulation in the soil (toxicity) , more so when the roots come in contact with the PT lumber.

Thank you for quoting the study. I'm usually on the run and on bnut on my phone. I had read that when I was looking to make some outdoor furniture and whether it would be safe for kids. Then I thought about bonsai trees and came across that report (here's a link: http://www.regional.org.au/au/asssi/supersoil2004/s3/oral/1519_sheldona.htm )

I've also heard Ryan Neil mention not to use PT wood for grow boxes. It is intersting that @Tieball does with no issues. I have no experience using PT wood in grow boxes so nothing first hand to offer other than what I have learned and seen from other's with more experience