Stupid things to reply to a beginner

Cosmos said:
This forum is quite noob-friendly. But some posters have a few bad reflexes when it comes to beginners posting pictures of their first (very likely crappy) tree.



Well, can you imagine, some of us don’t own a piece of land. How about you explain that the fastest growth is achieved by putting the tree in the ground, but barring that option, there are other things you can do (big pot, etc.). Also, be aware that beginners, in general, don’t want to put their tree in the ground and out of sight for 10 years. They want to play with it now.



Airlayering is not something that your run of the mill beginner probably knows how to do. Maybe he/she has never even heard of it! How about providing a a few resources about the technique and why it is useful.



How about providing a link to a tutorial, or explain why wiring was a bad idea in this case?



Is that really the right time of year to do that? How about giving a link about how to do a repot from a beginner’s perspective. A tree can live for years in bad soil if properly watered. Explain the benefits of draining bonsai soil.



How about suggesting similar species that are more suitable, and explain what suitability for bonsai even is.



How about asking the poster why he/she likes about the tree, and go from there.



Explain what inverse taper is. Why it is not generally considered a good thing. Offer suggestion as to how to avoid it for the next purchase.

Overall, I guess the idea is to not post if you’re not there to help. Also, if the beginner asks a question, please answer it, instead of just offering a four-word negative comment and then leaving.


*****

OTOH, universally good replies:

Indicate where you live in order for us to give you advice.
You should join a bonsai club in your area.
A bonsai lives outside as much as possible.
Focus on keeping the tree alive for a bit.
Spend time with your tree, look at it from all angles, think about all the possibilities, what you like about it.
Take things slow.
Here are some threads/links that you should read.
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There is nothing in this list that "money" can't fix.

If you have no money , your in the wrong hobby
 
Bananaman said:
Wow...that takes the pressure off...Thanks, Mark!
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I know, I know. I'm now in the neighborhood of "crazy old dude who roughs up cuddly newbies."

However, I have become increasingly frustrated with some of the nagging, finger wagging "you shouldn't talk to newbies like that" stuff here, coupled with the mostly isolated--but annoying and more frequently exhibited--tendency by some newcomers to demand information and complain when we don't comply with that demand or make it more convenient and easy for them to use.
 
Cosmos said:
Airlayering is not something that your run of the mill beginner probably knows how to do. Maybe he/she has never even heard of it! How about providing a a few resources about the technique and why it is useful.
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https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-science-of-air-layering.27034/

I get your point, however if someone says "you need to graft roots on it" it is pretty easy to search the site for "root grafting". I think people are pretty accepting of beginners if they say "I searched for all the info I could on air-layering, but I am still having problems. Here is my setup. Can someone please show me what I am doing wrong?" That shows they have at least put in the leg work.
 
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Anthony said:
Concave pruner $8.95 plus shipping
seed - compost 0$
clay pot - self fired 3.00 $
gravel ?
Library books 0.0-$

Sorry Al, affordable hobby.

Secret desire to show and win prizes - another matter.
Good Day
Cheapo Anthony
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Bonsai is a zero sum gain. You get out of it exactly what you put into it. Sure you can play for five bucks and ten years later you have a ten year older three dollar tree. What’s the point? I’m not in it for the affordability of the hobby, I want to have the best my budget allows. Maybe my budget is two grand a year, and maybe yours is twenty dollars per year. Your trees will reflect your budget. Now when you become a really good artist, sometimes I can turn your three dollar piece of shit into something great in those ten years.

My point, just understand where you are in the hobby and don’t expect something from nothing, it don’t work that way.
 
I think that most people here that respond to newbie questions are courteous and descriptive. I don't think it's entirely necessary to list out "correct" answers for us to cut and paste to beginner questions. I think it's great that knowledgable people will take their time to give good advice to help others, and pass along what they have learned.
 
rockm said:
The 'net is the best thing ever invented, but will probably first domino in the implosion of western civilization...
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I've been saying for a while now that the internet is both the best and the worst thing invented so far, and I agree it has the potential to play a role in the implosion of civilization. The availability of information (and speed of access) is something we could probably not even dream of, back in the day where we had to go to actual libraries and look things up in books. Sometimes even had to request specific book from other libraries and that could take...GASP...days or weeks! Now you can find all of that in seconds.

Of course, on the flip side, now every lunatic has a platform, fake news can spread at lightning speed, you're never sure if what you're reading is valid, all our systems (power, water, commerce) are now tied to the internet and could conceivably be brought down by terrorists or other countries, instantly setting society back a hundred years. What could go wrong there...
 
Danny Tuckey said:
I hate the 'join your local club' answer. I mostly work evenings. All clubs in the uk have their meetings in the evening at like 7:30pm. Therefore I cannot join! I've been wanting to go for ages but never get the chance especially with it being on only once a month.
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Not sure which bit of "England South' your location is Danny, but Bonsai Shed in Surrey (search on Facebook) have a group that meets on Sundays I think. Further south, Wessex Bonsai http://wessexbonsai.co.uk also have workshop meetings on Sundays. Couple of club options for you there at least.
 
I complement Comos on the post. While some may argue some of the details, I think the underlying message of putting yourself in the posters shoes and respond accordingly is something most can probably agree on. All of us have been new at something and asked the ‘stupid questions’ and/or have been impulsive. While it may not be beneficial in bonsai to be impulsive, I would argue that they (we) are the ones who need it the most. As someone who is quite impulsive (one of my reasons for doing bonsai is to try to become less impulsive) I often get into new things, so am constantly a NOB in some fashion. One of the biggest hurdles I see as a nob is that I am excited by something but overwhelmed by ignorance (on my part), the volume of info, much of it contradictory, and I don’t even know the right terms to start searching for (“Search for your own answer” can be a nightmare response). So I see a group of people who are actively engaged in the activity and I reach out for guidance. I find those who truly love the activity are more than willing to offer helpful friendly advice to help nobs get on the right track (if they are willing to take it). I don’t mean holding someone who refuse to help themselves by the hand for years, but at least providing some encouragement and point them in the right direction. After all, it is in the best interest of any hobby to encourage and guide the next generation of practitioners, so it does not die out.

Regarding the “join a club” advice. I can tell you from experiences being part of a good bonsai club is priceless beyond measure. It is by far one of the best pieces of advice anyone can give. I was a member of the San Diego Bonsai Club in the early 90’s and it is one of the things I miss most about San Diego (I am still amazed and humbled by the opportunity I had to work on the Wild Animal Park collection). However there are places without clubs (and not everyone is capable of starting their own), not everyone can/wants to join a club (for many reasons) and there are clubs that are…well…let’s just say, “not worth the time/effort” and leave it there. This is actually some of the driving reasons for me to search out and join Bonsai Nut in the first place. So I think we should encourage joining local clubs, but refrain from making assumptions regarding why one may not do so.

Yes there will be some who simply won’t help themselves, but let’s not “throw out the baby with the bathwater”. My experience is people who start something for the wrong reasons tend to fade out on their own accord. I would offer the analogy of gyms offering free first months memberships. Sure most who are attracted to that start only because it is ‘free’, but those tend to stop going quite quickly, and only the serious tend to stay.

Sorry for the long rant.
 
As a newbie in the hobby, the first thing I have learned is to develop a thick skin in regards to criticism and feedback in the bonsai community. I see a lot of people getting their feelings hurt when its just as easy to disregard a response that one feels is mean or unwarranted. For every response I have gotten that I have felt was less than nice, I've gotten 2 or 3 very helpful and friendly responses. Indeed, when I go back and read the not so nice ones there is usually something to learn and help progress there as well, if I can get past my feelings about the tone. I think we all have a hard time understanding the situation others are in while we are in a somewhat anonymous online community. Someone telling me to put it in the ground or join a club has no way of knowing that my yard is nothing but rock and is some bullshit to dig in, or that the two clubs I am already part of are a two hour drive for me, I just decide if I want to drive two hours east or west when I go. Just like I have no way of knowing that when the guy who has been doing this 20+ years sees my newbie question he has answered this question literally hundreds of times and maybe had 10% of people actually follow the advice they asked for, and indeed have gotten aggressive in their responses. That would piss me off too, I'd wager, and after enough times experiencing it I'd probably come in hot and salty on the get go as well. From my lurking about, I think a lot of people in my newbie situation would benefit from making a conscious effort to absorb the good information they are getting while disregarding any negativity thrown at them. Also, don't be above making good use of the ignore button : )

All that being said, I do want to express my appreciation to everyone on this forum who has taken time to respond in any fashion to the questions I have asked - it helps more than you may realize.
 
cheap_walmart_art said:
I think we all have a hard time understanding the situation others are in while we are in a somewhat anonymous online community.
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Even though I have been practicing bonsai in excess of 25 years, I remember perfectly my first trees and some of the initial critiques. I always try to be "brutally" frank with people and honest with my opinions - but try to do so in a respectful, friendly fashion.

My recommendation to all beginners - check your ego. Assume everyone you are talking to is a master who has something priceless to offer - and that you have limited time with them and can only ask a limited number of questions. If you receive feedback that you internally rebel against, do not immediately discard it. Instead ask probing questions. "Interesting point of view. Tell me more. Why do you feel this way?"

The fastest way to advance in this hobby is to find someone whose trees you like and copy them. COMPLETELY. Do EXACTLY what they do until you can do it in your sleep. Use their tools, their methods, their care, their species, their soil mixes, their fertilizers... and then when you have advanced to the stage where you can reasonably replicate their success... do it all over with someone else. My best advice to anyone starting out - find someone to shadow IN PERSON. Books can only give the most basic outline of bonsai. Videos from reputable bonsai masters are much better, but nothing beats hands-on experience under someone with more experience.
 
I would give this forum an A+ in its treatment of new bonsai enthusiasts. The experienced people here have saved me a bunch of time and money by sharing their knowledge so freely. I have many years of gardening experience but a lot of it doesn’t transfer too well to bonsai. I thank the big boys (and girls) on here for their patience and caring. My trees thank you too.
 
The heavyweights of this forum are tremendously helpful and were not in any way the posters I was referring to in my original post.

I was obviously trying to stir the pot with a title like that (alternative title: "What are your views on the best way to reply to beginner questions here", but that’s less catchy, isn’t?), and I apologize for any ensuing confusion.

Thank you for your opinion everyone.
 
Danny Tuckey said:
I hate the 'join your local club' answer. I mostly work evenings. All clubs in the uk have their meetings in the evening at like 7:30pm. Therefore I cannot join! I've been wanting to go for ages but never get the chance especially with it being on only once a month.
And to me giving a line of 'join your local bonsai club' just doesn't help with what they're asking for advice on. It will help at a later date if they go but not in the present time as they'd like an answer at this given moment. It's an escape line to look like you're giving advice but really you're not.
Rant over. - hopefully smiles all around - ?
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i drive 90 miles to go to my club meetings. life is about commitment. bonsai is a lifestyle choice not a hobby.
 
JoeH said:
I like it, I could see Spock and Kirk walking by it on Romulus or where ever. Its a plant in a pot that he is trying to make tree like so yeah, it counts in my mind.
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To each their own.

But aloe is a monocot...it is biologically unable to produce wood, has absolutely zero secondary xylem.

59088771-A96F-4E81-BA48-CA56B2A2E15B.png
 
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