Stainless or Carbon Steel?

[leatherback]

I purposefully use my tools correctly....a particular edge only cuts so much thickness....extending past that thickness invites problems. If I have to use excessive force I know I’m using the wrong tool or just plain trying to take to much off in one cut.

Yup. but sometimes.. You just get carried away and pick the wrong tool, or have the tool misaligned. I have however been annoyingly surprised by Yew. I did not realize how had yew gets when dead. So I broke one tool on a dead yew branch. Lesson learn, do not try to cut those except for with BIG tools. Then twice I cut in yew branches with a dead side to it, where I realizd the die-back only when the tool bent.

Don't push a tool to do more than you would reasonably expect from it.

Yeah, my message too. It was not untill a few years ago that I learned how small the branches are that certain tools are made for. That was after a season of tools in the bin and I started to read up on them

You used the wrong tools.

Of course. Tongue in cheeck remark above. Thought that was clear

 

[Silentrunning]

Actually, the title “Stainless Steel” is pretty much worthless today. At one time all stainless steel was identified with a classification such as T-302, T -304, 17-7ph and so on. Subsets of these classifications told you the hardness or harden-ability of these metals. Now days people think that if it says stainless steel that you will never have to worry about corrosion. Since the Chinese have been recycling old metals, there is really no telling what they can classify as stainless steel. I won’t play their game and pay extra for the “Stainless Steel” label. The truth is you should clean your tools thoroughly after EVERY plant you work on. Properly cleaned, carbon steel tools will last several lifetimes.

 

[leatherback]

Properly cleaned, carbon steel tools will last several lifetimes

Yes.
Assuming you are not a donkey like me that breaks tools!

 

[BuckeyeOne]

Me too!



Sorce

@sorce , Are you my little lost brother?
Dad moved around for awhile.

 

[BuckeyeOne]

So I broke one tool on a dead yew branch. Lesson learn, do not try to cut those except for with BIG tools. Then twice I cut in yew branches with a dead side to it, where I realizd the die-back only when the tool bent.

I've snapped many a lopper on yews. Some tough ass wood!

Chainsaw Brother, Chainsaw!!

 

[sorce]

@sorce , Are you my little lost brother?
Dad moved around for awhile.

Yup.

Lance too.

Sorce

 

[Farwest]

Whats the community preference on tools? I’ve got a set of the bare basics which include a small and medium sheer along with a wire cutter, but they aren’t what I would describe as great quality. I got the set as a bundle along with small gauge wire for like $55. Im looking to expand my kit with some tools that preferably don’t have cheap plastic bits.

Seems like 99% of what’s on the market is made of either stainless steel or carbon steel. Pros and cons for the two? Anyone swear by one or have another fall apart on them? Is there a particular vendor I should look at or avoid?

Thanks in advance!

Masakuni 8000 series are the best of both: rustproof finish on swedish steel. They are a pleasure to work with.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Stainless only has the advantage of not rusting readily. It CAN be almost the equal of carbon steel, but usually it is not. Carbon steel hard enough to hold a good edge is much easier to heat treat than stainless. Stainless requires a fairly long process in an accurate , high temperature oven to get the most out of it. I would be surprised if many cheap stainless tools go throught that process.

 

[Japonicus]

Japanese carbon should be atop the list.
Carbon easier to sharpen than hard SS.
? Does anybody make Damascus bonsai tools?
...and I don't mean acid washed to look like Damascus, I've got a set of Damascus cutlery done that way.
It's Japanese VG1 cutlery, but not truly folded and hammered over and over, just looks like Damascus steel.

 

[geargarcon]

Masakuni 8000 series are the best of both: rustproof finish on swedish steel. They are a pleasure to work with.

Please tell me more about this 8000 series. Do you know the composition of the steel? What makes this “Swedish steel” so good?

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I have been well pleased with American Bonsai stainless tools.

 

[vancehanna]

The finest knives are usually high carbon steel, Rc 56-62 on the blade edge. M2
cutting tool steel is high carbon steel with traces of Co,Cr,Mb and other elements.
The best tools in bonsai should have a fairly high Rc on the blade. I know one of the selling points that Masakuni had when I discussed this with them back in 1980 (when I took on their line of tools) was that they were made with Swedish Tool steel.
Without a doubt they rust and can be chipped or shattered ( a tip) if dropped.
Yet in using them all one has to do is use some intelligence and know that any shear or concave is designed to cut a branch diameter (live) approx 1/3 the length of the blade as recommended. Any more than that and you risk breaking the tool. No dead wood to be cut with! The shear is designed with a very small amount of “play” in the tool.
I had one guy come back to me and wanted a replacement/refund for a defective tool so he claimed.
He hammered the rivet so tightly you could barely open the shear… I laughed and told him he ruined the tool… duh!
In the above notes: buy the best you can afford and take good care of them. Learn how to properly care for them and never take them to a scissors sharpening service!
( had someone do that as well and then told me the tools were no good )
Hah!
I still have all of the original Masakuni’s from 1980 when I took on the line.
( I am a retired cutting tool engineer who sold Union/Butterfield, Natchi,Reif &Nestor, Niagra, along with private label carbide inserted milling cutters and end mill to print to the automotive industry )
I made up a page for sharpening detail with diagrams etc and will offer it but won’t post it as I usually give it to students.

 

[p_anova]

Am I the only person that uses Kiku? Does it suck or something? Wait did I just totally embarrass myself?

 

[leatherback]

I made up a page for sharpening detail with diagrams etc and will offer it but won’t post it as I usually give it to students.

I would LOVE a decent instruction on how to care for, and certainly sharpen tools. How can I convince you to share a copy with me?

 

[geargarcon]

The finest knives are usually high carbon steel, Rc 56-62 on the blade edge. M2
cutting tool steel is high carbon steel with traces of Co,Cr,Mb and other elements.
The best tools in bonsai should have a fairly high Rc on the blade. I know one of the selling points that Masakuni had when I discussed this with them back in 1980 (when I took on their line of tools) was that they were made with Swedish Tool steel.
Without a doubt they rust and can be chipped or shattered ( a tip) if dropped.
Yet in using them all one has to do is use some intelligence and know that any shear or concave is designed to cut a branch diameter (live) approx 1/3 the length of the blade as recommended. Any more than that and you risk breaking the tool. No dead wood to be cut with! The shear is designed with a very small amount of “play” in the tool.
I had one guy come back to me and wanted a replacement/refund for a defective tool so he claimed.
He hammered the rivet so tightly you could barely open the shear… I laughed and told him he ruined the tool… duh!
In the above notes: buy the best you can afford and take good care of them. Learn how to properly care for them and never take them to a scissors sharpening service!
( had someone do that as well and then told me the tools were no good )
Hah!
I still have all of the original Masakuni’s from 1980 when I took on the line.
( I am a retired cutting tool engineer who sold Union/Butterfield, Natchi,Reif &Nestor, Niagra, along with private label carbide inserted milling cutters and end mill to print to the automotive industry )
I made up a page for sharpening detail with diagrams etc and will offer it but won’t post it as I usually give it to students.

Very interesting! I had no idea it was a tool steel rather than a true “stainless”. That is great to learn. I had previously shied away from all silver steel bonsai tools but this might change my mind.

I would love to see the sharpening diagrams you put together. I currently use a shapton glass stone for sharpening most of my blades and have strops I’ve made with various compounds on them. I’ll send you a pm

 

[crea7or]

The finest knives are usually high carbon steel, Rc 56-62 on the blade edge. M2
cutting tool steel is high carbon steel with traces of Co,Cr,Mb and other elements.
The best tools in bonsai should have a fairly high Rc on the blade. I know one of the selling points that Masakuni had when I discussed this with them back in 1980 (when I took on their line of tools) was that they were made with Swedish Tool steel.
Without a doubt they rust and can be chipped or shattered ( a tip) if dropped.
Yet in using them all one has to do is use some intelligence and know that any shear or concave is designed to cut a branch diameter (live) approx 1/3 the length of the blade as recommended. Any more than that and you risk breaking the tool. No dead wood to be cut with! The shear is designed with a very small amount of “play” in the tool.
I had one guy come back to me and wanted a replacement/refund for a defective tool so he claimed.
He hammered the rivet so tightly you could barely open the shear… I laughed and told him he ruined the tool… duh!
In the above notes: buy the best you can afford and take good care of them. Learn how to properly care for them and never take them to a scissors sharpening service!
( had someone do that as well and then told me the tools were no good )
Hah!
I still have all of the original Masakuni’s from 1980 when I took on the line.
( I am a retired cutting tool engineer who sold Union/Butterfield, Natchi,Reif &Nestor, Niagra, along with private label carbide inserted milling cutters and end mill to print to the automotive industry )
I made up a page for sharpening detail with diagrams etc and will offer it but won’t post it as I usually give it to students.

I'm interested as well about the sharpening diagrams and any other useful info regarding sharpening stainless steel or "concave" stuff, if you are kind. Thank you!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Am I the only person that uses Kiku? Does it suck or something? Wait did I just totally embarrass myself?

Kiku is very good. My wire cutters are Kiku, bought them in 1995 and are still my go-to.

 

[p_anova]

Kiku is very good. My wire cutters are Kiku, bought them in 1995 and are still my go-to.

Ahhh ok. It was the only thing available "locally" that said "Japanese forged" so that is what I got. It seemed strange to me that nobody mentioned it on this thread so I thought their must be something wrong with the brand.

 

[vancehanna]

I'm interested as well about the sharpening diagrams and any other useful info regarding sharpening stainless steel or "concave" stuff, if you are kind. Thank you!

Simply send an email to vancehanna@hotmail.com and I’ll be delighted to send them out

 

[Lorax7]

Actually, the title “Stainless Steel” is pretty much worthless today. At one time all stainless steel was identified with a classification such as T-302, T -304, 17-7ph and so on. Subsets of these classifications told you the hardness or harden-ability of these metals. Now days people think that if it says stainless steel that you will never have to worry about corrosion. Since the Chinese have been recycling old metals, there is really no telling what they can classify as stainless steel. I won’t play their game and pay extra for the “Stainless Steel” label. The truth is you should clean your tools thoroughly after EVERY plant you work on. Properly cleaned, carbon steel tools will last several lifetimes.

Some of the tool vendors tell you exactly what steel they're using on their company website. For example, TianBonsai's site says their Master Craftsman series tools are made with 9Cr25MoV alloy steel (0.9% carbon), their Master's Grade series tools are 5Cr15MoV alloy steel (0.5% carbon), and so on. If a vendor's site doesn't say what steel they're using, you can probably still get that information if you send them an email.

By the way, knowing what particular steel is being used matters just as much for carbon steel as it does for stainless. A tool made with T10 or 1095 is going to be a lot more durable than something made of 1045, especially if it's meant to have a sharp edge.

Personally, most of my tools are stainless steel. I bought a beginner set of Mu Tian stainless steel tools about 5 years ago. I'm still using most of them. However, the shears bent so badly that they're unusable. I replaced them with Okatsune Master's Grade carbon steel shears and have been happy with those. I don't use my small stainless steel concave cutters very much. I bought a large, long-handled pair of Koyo carbon steel concave cutters and I use those frequently. I bought large, long-handled Roshi stainless steel root cutters and have been happy with those as well.

My general opinion is that carbon steel is easier to sharpen but still holds an edge. Stainless steel is a PITA to sharpen, although it holds an edge well, maybe a bit longer than for carbon steel. I'm not super conscientious about wiping my carbon steel tools down with an oily rag every time they're used, but I do give them a thorough coating with choji oil once in a while and that seems to work pretty well to keep the rust at bay as long as they're not getting rained on and put away wet. I use one of those SandFlex tool eraser blocks to scrub off any brown surface rust that happens to appear. I prefer stainless steel for tools where having a sharp edge is not a concern, like my jin pliers, or for tools that are consistently going to get wet all the time, such as the root cutters.