Spring vs Fall repotting

[edprocoat]

i still say spring repotting is best

I agree !! LOl
It gives them all summer to safely grow new roots.

ed

 

[Poink88]

You guys are missing the whole point, we are talking about BONSAI, trees in shallow pots with fine roots. Trees in nature grow deeper roots as well as fine feeder roots and whenever the warmth of the ground allows they replace damaged upper roots this is how many conifers get water to their foliage during winter, and trees regularly lose their upper fine feeder roots when the ground freezes. Things such as snow cover can hold the earths heat in the soil and they regrow, this readiness to grow is called a quiescent state. Trees in shallow containers with fine roots systems, Bonsai ! with no large tap roots or deep protected root systems can die from frozen roots. Think of it this way, if you cut off all your fine roots from your tree what would happen. I lost 8 trees to a freeze in the first week of October, it was 18 degrees the roots were wet as it had rained the whole night before and until noon that day. The temps fell fast and the water laden fine roots froze and literally expanded splitting and seperating the roots. I also lost several pots that day. Now you can keep your trees however you like, you can listen to that bullshit about trees not growing roots during the summer ??? if you are so stupid or never had a tree put roots through your bottom screen in Jul-Aug but if you want to know the truth northern trees go dormant, shallow root growth stops until warmth allows growth and shallow roots die when frozen. Look it up, ask any nursery man why they mulch in their trees which happen to be in the ground, warmth and moisture my friend.

BTW Poink, don't flatter yourself by saying "I can raise post count by saying "wow, I agree" so much faster. No need for me to compose paragraphs and "risk" my neck every time I get contradictory" your whole fricking post was " I agree "

I think if anyone gives advice they should take into consideration the local of the one who asks for it. That is the reason I mentioned he was in Pa. and you in Texas. I dont give a shit about your post count, it was only mentioned as I could not understand why else you would post an opinion on something you clearly have no idea about "You are right that I do not know PA weather...just TX weather." I live in Ohio and Florida so I have a bit of knowledge about zones 5b to 9 .

ed

ed

You totally missed it. The jkl post that started what you got riled about and I agreed with is this...

Uh uh. Roots are doing a lot of growing during the winter -- at least until the pots freeze solid and stay that way.

Please read it again and again until you see the part about being frozen.

 

[edprocoat]

You totally missed it. The jkl post that started what you got riled about and I agreed with is this...



Please read it again and again until you see the part about being frozen.

Obviously you don't get it Dario roots do not do a "lot" of growing in winter, only grow when the temps are perfect, which is not often in NORTHERN winters. Pots that freeze solid and stay that way will kill the fine roots on all trees even ones growing in a field, thats why we set Bonsai on the ground and mulch them in. You see my friend Bonsai have no more than fine roots and once gone... I would ask you to read it again and again but you seem to have a problem with either comprehension or admitting when you are wrong.

ed

 

[Dav4]

Obviously you don't get it Dario roots do not do a "lot" of growing in winter, only grow when the temps are perfect, which is not often in NORTHERN winters. Pots that freeze solid and stay that way will kill the fine roots on all trees even ones growing in a field, thats why we set Bonsai on the ground and mulch them in. You see my friend Bonsai have no more than fine roots and once gone... I would ask you to read it again and again but you seem to have a problem with either comprehension or admitting when you are wrong.

ed

Hey Ed. The highlighted above has me puzzled. What do you mean when you refer to "fine roots"? Based on the statement above, I shouldn't have any fine roots in the pots of any of my trees this spring as they all saw temps way below freezing. This tree was outside sitting on the ground with a few leaves on it when it fell to 2 F in January. It was on the bench numerous times when it fell into the mid to low 20's. It seemed to have a lot of fine roots when I repotted it...

 

[coh]

Obviously you don't get it Dario roots do not do a "lot" of growing in winter, only grow when the temps are perfect, which is not often in NORTHERN winters. Pots that freeze solid and stay that way will kill the fine roots on all trees even ones growing in a field, thats why we set Bonsai on the ground and mulch them in. You see my friend Bonsai have no more than fine roots and once gone... I would ask you to read it again and again but you seem to have a problem with either comprehension or admitting when you are wrong.

ed

So by your logic, all my trees (and all Bill V's trees) should be dead right now, correct? Because we both use the same over-wintering system...garage (his case) or barn (my case) with a space heater that keeps the temperature at about 27-28 deg all winter. So the pots are completely frozen for long periods of time.

A nursery owner friend up here stores almost all of their stock in unheated hoop houses with minimal protection and no heat. So the plants are protected from wind but pretty much exposed to the full effects of Rochester cold, which includes long periods (days) well below freezing and frequently 0 or below (F). They do this every year and most of the stock comes through the winter just fine.

Chris

 

[JudyB]

I can't listen to this any more without commenting. I DO live in Ohio, and I do see rootgrowth in winter.
I had a tree I received last fall as an example, that came without a pot. The soil in the rootball was not in great shape, was a little broken down. I put it in a pot that was larger than the current rootball, and filled in the area with good bonsai soil. This spring when I lifted it to repot, there was a large mass of new fine white feeder roots all the way around this tree in the soil that I put around the rootball. I do not think the tree grew all those in the two weeks or so before the weather started to freeze here. And this tree isn't one that does not freeze solid for periods of time, although I do protect it, I do not keep it from freezing. So by example of this tree, I think that they do grow in fall and winter, and freezing doesn't kill them.

I have always planted landscape trees (hundreds of them BTW) in the fall. Much better success rate than any other time of year due to the fall root growth season.

 

[edprocoat]

I give up guys, I have posted "not a lot" "when temps are perfect" etc. but you guys key on one word and seem to want to argue. So in your world trees grow roots all winter long, ok.

Coh, by your logic ? I cant even answer this rationally, when did I say the trees would be dead. I said they can be killed by freezing solid and I have had this happen. Maybe the KEY in your post is that you both keep your plants inside during winter months, ???

JudyB, so you do not think your tree grew any of these new roots in the "two weeks or so" before winter or maybe last 45 days "or so" in Ohio when the weather although still nasty has seen many, many hours above freezing including several days above 60 degrees ? Or are you saying all these new roots grew for you when the pot was " froze solid " .

Dav4, really North georgia ?? come on seriously, you truly need to read your childishly written post. So it was setting on the ground when it fell to 2 F and numerous times on the bench when it hit 20 F. I guess you missed "froze solid" etc. How many days was it in the upper 30's, upper 50's or above there in N. Ga. this winter? Or do you feel all warm and fuzzy that your plant grew these roots on those particular cold days? Come on at least have something sane to offer if you plan to argue.

Look believe what you want, there have been studies using sound imaging (think sonogram) to monitor tree root growth. The article I first linked explains exactly what I am posting here in terms any literate person should be able to understand. You are free to believe whatever you feel is right, ignore the studies and published articles in universities or any of the information that is out there.

In the words of Benjamin Franklin “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.”

Here is this link I posted in post #9 again, feel free to read it or ignore it or rebuke it, at least if you try to rebuke it dont give me your feelings show me similar material. http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_do_tree_roots_do_in_winter/

sheesh

ed

 

[JudyB]

Pots that freeze solid and stay that way will kill the fine roots on all trees even ones growing in a field, thats why we set Bonsai on the ground and mulch them in.

I would like to know how anyone is misinterpreting this statement. My pot did freeze solid, and did not kill the fine roots. That is what you are telling us happens. And we are saying that we have evidence otherwise.

And no Ed, I do not think roots grow when the pot is frozen, I never said that. What I did say was that trees do indeed grow roots in winter in Ohio. period, the end.

 

[Dav4]

I give up guys, I have posted "not a lot" "when temps are perfect" etc. but you guys key on one word and seem to want to argue. So in your world trees grow roots all winter long, ok.

Coh, by your logic ? I cant even answer this rationally, when did I say the trees would be dead. I said they can be killed by freezing solid and I have had this happen. Maybe the KEY in your post is that you both keep your plants inside during winter months, ???

JudyB, so you do not think your tree grew any of these new roots in the "two weeks or so" before winter or maybe last 45 days "or so" in Ohio when the weather although still nasty has seen many, many hours above freezing including several days above 60 degrees ? Or are you saying all these new roots grew for you when the pot was " froze solid " .

Dav4, really North georgia ?? come on seriously, you truly need to read your childishly written post. So it was setting on the ground when it fell to 2 F and numerous times on the bench when it hit 20 F. I guess you missed "froze solid" etc. How many days was it in the upper 30's, upper 50's or above there in N. Ga. this winter? Or do you feel all warm and fuzzy that your plant grew these roots on those particular cold days? Come on at least have something sane to offer if you plan to argue.

Look believe what you want, there have been studies using sound imaging (think sonogram) to monitor tree root growth. The article I first linked explains exactly what I am posting here in terms any literate person should be able to understand. You are free to believe whatever you feel is right, ignore the studies and published articles in universities or any of the information that is out there.

In the words of Benjamin Franklin “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.”

Here is this link I posted in post #9 again, feel free to read it or ignore it or rebuke it, at least if you try to rebuke it dont give me your feelings show me similar material. http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_do_tree_roots_do_in_winter/

sheesh

ed

Ed, I did this for over a decade in ZONE 6 MA, where my trees, including this one, did freeze solid for THE ENTIRE WINTER...the roots looked the same there as they do here...and, yes, we had a particularly cold winter in N GA and this tree was FROZEN solid for several weeks at a time at least twice. Root death is NOT related to the soil being frozen...it is related to the water held intracellularly in the root tissue freezing and rupturing the cell membranes- there is a species specific temperature at which this occurs, but, with temperate plants, it is when temps at the root zone are in the mid to low teens F or lower. You are the one who is ignorant and should really stop giving advice about things that you really don't understand...

 

[edprocoat]

Ed, I did this for over a decade in ZONE 6 MA, where my trees, including this one, did freeze solid for THE ENTIRE WINTER...the roots looked the same there as they do here...and, yes, we had a particularly cold winter in N GA and this tree was FROZEN solid for several weeks at a time at least twice. Root death is NOT related to the soil being frozen...it is related to the water held intracellularly in the root tissue freezing and rupturing the cell membranes- there is a species specific temperature at which this occurs, but, with temperate plants, it is when temps at the root zone are in the mid to low teens F or lower. You are the one who is ignorant and should really stop giving advice about things that you really don't understand...

So you agree with me? Great !

BTW Einstein, what the hell is so special about ZONE 6 MA that you color it red like its a freakin badge of honor ? I live in zone 5B OHIO, we get colder temps than you. Talk about ignorance...

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I would like to know how anyone is misinterpreting this statement. My pot did freeze solid, and did not kill the fine roots. That is what you are telling us happens. And we are saying that we have evidence otherwise.

And no Ed, I do not think roots grow when the pot is frozen, I never said that. What I did say was that trees do indeed grow roots in winter in Ohio. period, the end.

JudyB, so you know none of your fine roots died. I guess you removed the plant and measured the roots after each freeze? Or is this just your feelings, emotions are a funny thing. There is tons of info on fine root death during periods of extreme cold and regrowth during periods of warmth etc. I was trying to point out to everyone here that is what winter is. Dav4 aped my post about celluar water retention and then called me ignorant. I dont get you guys at all, you say you are willing to learn but you have a "feeling" that goes against documented proofs and you cling to that hunch.

ed

 

[Dav4]

JudyB, so you know none of your fine roots died. I guess you removed the plant and measured the roots after each freeze? Or is this just your feelings, emotions are a funny thing. There is tons of info on fine root death during periods of extreme cold and regrowth during periods of warmth etc. I was trying to point out to everyone here that is what winter is. Dav4 aped my post about celluar water retention and then called me ignorant. I dont get you guys at all, you say you are willing to learn but you have a "feeling" that goes against documented proofs and you cling to that hunch.

ed

Actually, I see you giving horticultural advice and I start to cringe. I'm outa here!

 

[edprocoat]

I see where this is going, I provide written proofs and you guys reply with feelings and insults and ultimatums. I will not participate in a liberal hissy fit, if you have proofs post 'em. Written proofs not your emotioinal feelings, not your ultimatums.

ed

 

[coh]

Coh, by your logic ? I cant even answer this rationally, when did I say the trees would be dead. I said they can be killed by freezing solid and I have had this happen. Maybe the KEY in your post is that you both keep your plants inside during winter months, ???

I quoted your exact phrase but will do it again:

Pots that freeze solid and stay that way will kill the fine roots on all trees even ones growing in a field, thats why we set Bonsai on the ground and mulch them in. You see my friend Bonsai have no more than fine roots and once gone...

Here's how I interpret the statement:

(1) If the pots freeze solid and stay that way (and yes, mine do) the fine roots will be killed

(2) Bonsai only have fine roots

(3) Therefore, if the pots freeze solid (killing all the fine roots) by extension the bonsai will be dead (or at the least, severely set back).

If that's not what you meant, you should spend more time making sure you express yourself clearly.

Studies I have seen indicate that various species have different "root killing temperatures" and very few temperate zone trees will suffer significant root damage until temperatures get well down into the low 20s or lower. So yes, leaving a bonsai out on an unprotected bench in this type of climate is not too wise, that's why no one does it (except maybe with larch). Your statement, though, made no reference to the actual temperature, it just referred to "freezing solid" which can happen at 30 deg with no harm to plant roots.

As to whether roots actually grow when the soil is frozen - I doubt it. In Judy's case, I would think the growth occurred before the soil froze, during any thaws, and in the spring before repotting.

In the words of Benjamin Franklin “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.”

I'm pretty sure that's twice you've used the term "stupid" in this thread when no one else has. I guess that's what one does when he doesn't know how to have an actual back and forth discussion with others?

 

[Paradox]

I have had trees that I left out all winter that froze and they died.

I have trees that Ive left out all winter that froze and they lived.

I dont know if they grew roots or not, I didnt bother to check/measure roots before and after, but the ones that lived did still have fine roots after being frozen.

I think it depends on the species of tree. Some can handle it, some cant. Period.
I change my treatment of those species accordingly.

If Judy says she has seen roots grow over the winter, I believe her.
If Dave says his trees stay frozen all winter and live, I believe him.

All I know about my trees is the ones that died, died and the ones that lived, lived.
Thats all that matters as far as Im concerned.

 

[M. Frary]

I live where everything freezes solid. And I worked at a nursery/ tree farm for three years. And I am also an I.S.A. certified arborist. Utility line clearance specialist.
At the nursery I worked at we dug all of the trees we expected to use that year in the spring. That way they could recover from the trauma. What was left we sheltered the stock from wind and mulched them in. Invariably some didn't get mulched in and they were fine too. In buckets. Frozen solid for months. In the spring when I repotted or planted them in the ground I only would see roots from the previous year.
That is where the arborist part comes in. We were taught that deciduous trees go completely dormant meaning for me the limb I'm climbing on is more brittle or breakable. That's why maples are tapped in the spring. The rush of sap up the tree as the roots wake up. Which means it's more conductive to electricity.
Pines are also dormant in winter but not sleeping as deeply. More like a slumber with restless leg syndrome. There is still a little going on down in the root zone. That's why if you cut a limb off of a pine in winter there is still sap . And they are still flexible.
What does all of that mean for us trying to grow bonsai? Not a damn thing. Our trees are not in the ground. So being an arborist only helps a little. Working at a nursery is more like what we do.
So after all of that I'm going to go out on a limb and say to repot and root work in the spring if there is a chance of a brutal winter where you live. Don't take a chance your trees will make through freezing with fresh cut roots.

 

[Paradox]

RichKid

I dont know about Crepe myrtle, but the burning bush should be repotted in the spring.

When was it last repotted? If it was last year and it doesnt need it now, wait until next year and see. Trees dont get repotted every year generally. It would be better to allow it to get some growth if it needs it. You can do some pruning of branches for refinement if it needs that.

 

[edprocoat]

I'm pretty sure that's twice you've used the term "stupid" in this thread when no one else has. I guess that's what one does when he doesn't know how to have an actual back and forth discussion with others?

COH I agree with your assesment of the content of my post on tree root freezing in your post I quoted from above. That is what i was trying to point out, especially your point #3.

I have to disagree with the last part (above) I have not once used the word stupid, that quote my friend was from BENJAMIN FRANKLIN and clearly attributed as such.

ed

 

[Dav4]

So you agree with me? Great !

BTW Einstein, what the hell is so special about ZONE 6 MA that you color it red like its a freakin badge of honor ? I live in zone 5B OHIO, we get colder temps than you. Talk about ignorance...

ed

Because you are an idiot who needs help with understanding simple things. By the way, how's that birds nest spruce doing...I hear they do great in FL... Moron

 

[edprocoat]

I am happy this has been settled. Trees that freeze solid die. Just as I posted, perhaps people think their trees are frozen solid not realizing that on the ground the warmth of the earth keep the soil temps above freezing despite the surface of the pot being frozen... Simple aint it ?

ed