Source for JWP on its own roots?

[Deleted member 32750]

Yes, and if they are grafted it's usually now onto Japanese white pine stocks. Grafting onto black pine is more for ''commercial grade'' trees.

Yep, those are japanese ‘Mallsai’ there is a prominent US nursery that seems to make a fortune importing and selling them for a high price though.

 

[MichaelS]

Yep, those are japanese ‘Mallsai’ there is a prominent US nursery that seems to make a fortune importing and selling them for a high price though.

Hey if I could do that I probably would too! (but I'm not so interested in keeping and growing them. Most of the ones I see here just get uglier and uglier every year - at the graft union)
Now they have started to graft J white pine onto Pinus wallichiana (Himalayan white pine) and that is much better than black but still too vigorous for the scion in my mind.

 

[yashu]

Hey if I could do that I probably would too! (but I'm not so interested in keeping and growing them. Most of the ones I see here just get uglier and uglier every year - at the graft union)
Now they have started to graft J white pine onto Pinus wallichiana (Himalayan white pine) and that is much better than black but still too vigorous for the scion in my mind.

That’s one of the big problems I have. The JBP rootstock never fails to be bulbous, contorted (not in the good way) and completely mismatched to the slower growing JWP. I hate that look and nearly all the grafts I see are intolerably obvious.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I've had a strobus and I don't remember even watering it for 4 years. The beast lived until I was done with the smell of cheese, like wet gouda mixed with pine resin.. Pretty invasive tree around here! Allied soldiers must have carried a couple cones, because these pines are found all over the old Market Garden trail.
Same with Quercus rubra that is locally known as American oak; those are taking over forests by the thousands.

The older I get and the longer I play with and or admire bonsai and or just trees . The more respect I get for trees in there native range . And what has been done with them and there importance to history of a area . I live in the heart of Pinus Strobus range it is the provincial tree of Ontario of great importance to the economic history of the area . Some truly great wood work had been done with this species . A mature pine forest is a majestic sight . Dirr refers to strobus as one of are most beautiful native pines a well grown nature white pine is without equal among the firs spruces and other pines I am not posting this to brag about it’s virtues . Or recommend it for bonsai . But to point out a tree like a lot of things outside it’s element . Can be difficult to appreciate .

 

[Frozentreehugger]

It's not that seedling are easily lost they are quite hardy in the seed pots. You tend to lose them when they are older and you make mistakes in potting up, mix, watering, too much phosphorous etc. One of the biggest mistakes I made was to over-pot. One inch or so of root room in the new pot is plenty. If you can, raise them in clay pots until you want to display.
They are very easy to germinate as long as you have viable seeds. (do the sink or float test) I use sand/gravel and bark as a sowing medium with mycorrhizae from a healthy tree mixed in and planted into a shallow clay pot with a good aeration layer of coarser particles (7-10mm) followed by slightly finer particles (5 to 7mm) and then your sowing mix which should be from 1 to 4mm size. They do very much better in clay as it absorbs extra water from the medium and keeps the seedling happy. You need to cold stratify them for 3 months at 4C In vermiculite or similar after soaking. Then planted in spring. The stratification medium must be barely damp and no more. That's important. Germinate in the sun and cover the pot with some mesh to protect against birds and mice. Leave in full sun and wait 2 years before lifting and potting up singly. For you, now would be a good time to buy them and store them dry in the fridge in an air tight glass jar until stratification time arrives. They will survive for years that way so you can sow them over several years if you end up with too many. They are always in demand and you won't have any trouble moving them. Also, don't worry about long needles or bad colour or other features because it's easy to graft desirable cultivars on to them. (when they are about 3-4 years old). They are very slow compared to black pine stocks but the growth is finer and more like the original selection.

Thank you great info . Unfortunately like I said seed is difficult to source . I do have access to a garden planted tree cultivar is Glauca has 3 cones on it that I believe will nature next year there still purple . I have read there is a very good chance the foliage Nice blue green colour will come true from seed on this tree . Let’s hope . I really appreciate you taking the time to respond with your practical experience . Considering there scarcity . I want to max my chances

 

[yashu]

I’ve got some strobus in the back yard (photo from last fall), my house is surrounded by them as well. I have a handful I’ve been working on and I actually did try some grafts from the JWP in my original post onto some potted pinus strobus but they did not take for me.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

View attachment 453088I’ve got some strobus in the back yard (photo from last fall), my house is surrounded by them as well. I have a handful I’ve been working on and I actually did try some grafts from the JWP in my original post onto some potted pinus strobus but they did not take for me.

There is lots of strobus around my cottage . Which is about 1.5 hours straight north of Rochester New York . . Several in the woods with 5 foot thick trunks . But my fav is alone on a small island about 40 feet tall the local osprey mated pair make there nest in it . The tree very much looks like a bonsai on a rock slab

 

[0soyoung]

• That’s one of the big problems I have. The JBP rootstock never fails to be bulbous, contorted (not in the good way) and completely mismatched to the slower growing JWP. I hate that look and nearly all the grafts I see are intolerably obvious.

Well, lets think about it.

One way to deal with it is to hide or disguise the mismatch.

• Possibly one could just pot the tree so that the root stock is completely below ground. This is commonly done with corkers.
• Another is to make the classic JWP 'foliage rock' canopy which covers (obscures sight of) the union. This could even be an exposed root design.
• Another is a design that simply places foliage across the view if the union - the viewer perceives unseen taper, not the blob and a thin trunk emerging from it.
• Another is to plant the tree with the trunk slanting away from the chosen front. A shari could further help in fooling 'the eyes because we see a a fat trunk in the foreground and then we see the thinner trunk in the background - the viewer perceives unseen taper, not the blob and a thin trunk emerging from it.

Another way is to find a tree that is grafted immediately below the first JWP branch

• Obviously, It is much easier to obscure visibility of the union and it could have the plus of the trunk could be a species that barks up well before JWP does.

Then there is replacing the foliage on anther pine with foliage from your favorite variety of JWP.

• IOW, learn how to graft - Juniper foliage is routinely replaced, Ponderosa foliage is often replaced with JBP.

Hmmm, what/how else

 

[Frozentreehugger]

My understanding is JWP is primarily grafted onto JBP for 2 reasons in the nursery trade . Not the bonsai trade . One to make the tree more heat tolerant so it can be successful in warmer climates . And 2 to make the tree more vigorous . Fir faster growth rate . It of course also is grafted like a lot of conifers to read of reduce dwarf and unique cultivars .

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Grafting is the key propagation tool for the landscape conifer industry, since pines in general do not root as cuttings and seedlings have too much variation in quality for most landscape nursery purposes. Grafting is the "go to" propagation tool.

In the USA for the landscape industry JBP is not the "go to" understock for grafted pines, usually Pinus contorta var latifolia, or Pinus sylvestris, sometimes Pinus nigra, and yes, occasionally JBP but JBP is not "first" on the commercial landscape nursery list because it is not cold hardy enough. the go to pine needs to be hardy in at least 47 states up to 7000 foot elevation. That's where the customers are.

For what it is worth, most pines in the Strobus section of the genus Pinus, this is the white pine group, including JWP and strobus (EWP) and Himalayan white pine and others, they are LISTEd as having only 18 month shelf life for seed. Meaning stored cool and dry (in a refrigerator) germination rate at 18 months will be above 75% at 18 months and then deteriorate from there. At three years one would expect JWP seed to be at less than 50% viable due to this shelf life. As a contrast JBP and Pinus banksiana have 10 year shelf life. Meaning stored in a refrigerator, cool and dry seed will be above 75% viable after 10 years of storage. Do plan on using your JWP seed within 2 or 3 years of purchase. Best if seed is planted first year after purchase. Yes, @MichaelS description of stratification will help you get best germination.

 

[yashu]

While I respect and appreciate the many voices saying “learn to graft” “find a good graft” “graft graft graft” I specifically started this thread because I want an ungrafted goyomatsu. I’m well aware of the plethora of graft styles and the many ways to hide crappy grafts, this is neither what I asked for nor what I want, but thank you. I don’t really know how to make it any more clear without going ALL CAPS on y’all…(please take that with the humor intended). Please stop with the graft talk, save it for another thread.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Grafting is the key propagation tool for the landscape conifer industry, since pines in general do not root as cuttings and seedlings have too much variation in quality for most landscape nursery purposes. Grafting is the "go to" propagation tool.

In the USA for the landscape industry JBP is not the "go to" understock for grafted pines, usually Pinus contorta var latifolia, or Pinus sylvestris, sometimes Pinus nigra, and yes, occasionally JBP but JBP is not "first" on the commercial landscape nursery list because it is not cold hardy enough. the go to pine needs to be hardy in at least 47 states up to 7000 foot elevation. That's where the customers are.

For what it is worth, most pines in the Strobus section of the genus Pinus, this is the white pine group, including JWP and strobus (EWP) and Himalayan white pine and others, they are LISTEd as having only 18 month shelf life for seed. Meaning stored cool and dry (in a refrigerator) germination rate at 18 months will be above 75% at 18 months and then deteriorate from there. At three years one would expect JWP seed to be at less than 50% viable due to this shelf life. As a contrast JBP and Pinus banksiana have 10 year shelf life. Meaning stored in a refrigerator, cool and dry seed will be above 75% viable after 10 years of storage. Do plan on using your JWP seed within 2 or 3 years of purchase. Best if seed is planted first year after purchase. Yes, @MichaelS description of stratification will help you get best germination.

@Leo in N E Illinois as always great info . As I said before JWP is rare here . Grafted or not only ones I have seen were about 10 years ago my specialist conifer nursery . Had about 10 with ugly grafts . Sometimes I wish I purchased one for grafting stock . They were a nice dwarf . Mist of his stuff comes from iseli . Was surprised when he told me recently . All the customers that purchased them planted in the ground lost them . To winter kill . Zone 4. There are a few JWP around Ottawa . In gardens most notable in gardens belonging to embassies and there residents . That are fairly old .

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have a well house I use to winter trees that are not quite winter hardy. The year I repot my JWP, it goes in the well house for the winter. My JWP 'Azuma' has now been 3 years without the roots being disturbed, it has been outside for the winter, just set on the ground. Did just fine.

Just saying, you have to think about what things were done to the tree each growing season when deciding about winter protection. Repotting is the most stressful activity possible we do to our trees.

 

[brentwood]

Well, I’m patient… mostly.
View attachment 452774
View attachment 452775

I'd call him, best way to really know with him

Bent

 

[yashu]

I'd call him, best way to really know with him

Bent

Thanks, I have been in contact with Julian and I’m now on his list after he takes care of the folks that he wasn’t able to get to due to the bad season he had.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hey if I could do that I probably would too! (but I'm not so interested in keeping and growing them. Most of the ones I see here just get uglier and uglier every year - at the graft union)
Now they have started to graft J white pine onto Pinus wallichiana (Himalayan white pine) and that is much better than black but still too vigorous for the scion in my mind.

The JWP I have been able to find here in NC are primarily grafted onto P. strobiformis. The bark is almost identical to that of P. parviflora.

 

[0soyoung]

The JWP I have been able to find here in NC are primarily grafted onto P. strobiformis. The bark is almost identical to that of P. parviflora.

Well, there are JWP on eastern white pine here (out west). So, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that southwestern white pine is used back southeast.

Still, it is hard for me to believe.
I just want to believe you meant p. strobus.

 

[Bob Hunter]

Mark Comstock started some JWP from seed a couple a years ago maybe he has some?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well, there are JWP on eastern white pine here (out west). So, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that southwestern white pine is used back southeast.

Still, it is hard for me to believe.
I just want to believe you meant p. strobus.

No... because there are a lot of P. strobus cultivars here as well that use P. strobiformis for root stock. It was strange enough for me to ask twice "are you sure?" I was talking to the nursery owner and that earned me a raised eyebrow

Who knows? Perhaps they can get a lot of seedlings cheap from Mexico(?)

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If I had the energy to find out why P. strobiliformis is use in the nursery trade as understock over P. strobus and other species, I would probably ask Talon Buchholz. He's semi-retired and can be found on the web at his "Flora-Wonder" Blog. He is / was a big commercial wholesale nursery, now semi-retired and willing to share a lot of information. He was the originator of the "Ghost" series of Japanese maples. 'Purple Ghost' was probably his biggest claim to fame. Though I think he thinks of himself as a conifer specialist. Seems a nice, all be it a little gruff of a guy. As he is active in the "industry" he would likely share why the "industry" uses strobiliformis.

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