Soulution for Styling Apex

[johng]

ok...i have debated for days about posting in this thread...here are some of my thoughts about apexes. Hopefully this will just add to the discussion.

In the last 20+ years I have certainly tried, and have examples in my garden of all the methods for developing apexes mentioned here...I think they all have their pros and cons...and some maybe necessary if you are working with lesser material, but ultimately they all fall short of how trees grow naturally in my view.

Qualifications... The following is based on my desire to create trees that reference naturally mature and aged trees. I am not trying to grow triangles or trying to use tromp l'oiel methods to disguise the structure....I am not saying those methods are wrong...I'm just interested in creating a more natural branch structure for my trees.

What I have noticed...
1. Very very few trees in nature (other than the proverbial spruce style...christmas tree) have a single trunk line that travels from the base to the top of the tree. This is particularly true for deciduous species but also true for most conifers. For me this eliminates the bend over the single branch apex option...regardless of how it is twisted or shaped, it will never replicate the natural form.
2. Very few natural trees have downward sloping primary and secondary apex branches... tertiary branches may be angled horizontal or slightly downward.
3. As a general rule...Apexes on mature trees are never pointed...instead they are domed....of course there are exceptions to this.

Application...
For me this means that I am going to use multiple ascending branches to form an apex. Generally, I use 3 branches, that ascend vertically at some angle, to form a 3d domed shaped apex. For younger material this means that you need to move down the trunk from the single branch at the top to a point where several branches are located (I believe both Smoke and Rob alluded to this). I think it is also important that these 3 branches do not all emanate from the same location on the trunk. For deciduous trees, an apex done this way may be as much as a third of the foliage silhouette. For conifers it is typically a smaller percentage of the total...1/6th or even less.

In time, I selectively prune and train the secondary and tertiary branches of the apex to conform to an over all dome shape. Larger branches are eventually eliminated as they grow out of scale and replaced by the remaining smaller branches.

I know pics would help but I think if you step outside and closely examine a few mature trees you will see that in most cases the apex you see have little resemblance to most apexes we design for our bonsai.

I think the one exception to all this are the yamadori style junipers (specifically referring to the ones created by man...not actual yamadori junipers), as has been pointed out, all the rules are forgotten here in favor of a tromp l'eoil approach....and there is no winter view to reveal the "cheating".

Here is a video in which Arthur Joura and I discussed this topic.
[video=youtube_share;uM0ynQh1yrc]http://youtu.be/uM0ynQh1yrc[/video]

 

[A Random User]

Thanks very much John, for adding to the discussion.
I think there is quite a bit of useful info in you video as well...

I think you bring up a good point and that is the need to resemble nature, or
to not resemble nature in the creation of a Bonsai. My only problem when someone
starts laying don rules for what is and what would not be found in a natural setting,
is that far to often, we find that this in case turns out to be just the opposite. That,
just because a tree in your neighborhood looks a certain way, it might not look the
same on the other side of the world.

By this I mean the following, that I would agree completely with your whole post and
it's assessment of an apex, on a tree growing in a mild, perhaps occasionally hostile environment.
Where yes, if one views them, they would find do precisely what you have suggested they
do.

However, I would have to say that I totally disagree with your statement when it comes to
trees living in a hostile environment. This is the part I am in disagreement with.

1. Very very few trees in nature (other than the proverbial spruce style...christmas tree) have a single trunk line that travels from the base to the top of the tree. This is particularly true for deciduous species but also true for most conifers. For me this eliminates the bend over the single branch apex option...regardless of how it is twisted or shaped, it will never replicate the natural form.
2. Very few natural trees have downward sloping primary and secondary apex branches... tertiary branches may be angled horizontal or slightly downward.

Now the reason for my disagreement, would be that in a hostile living environment, a tree
does not grow according to the typical DNA path that perhaps it was suppose to do. It instead
adapts and does what it needs in order to survive. I have actually seen rows of trees that have
grown straight up and once they reached above the top of a peak, every single one of their apexes
was bent at a 90 degree angle because of wind sheer. If one goes out to the high
desert, you will witness all the trees going in one direction because of wind. Then there are things
like snow, that often because of pure weight , will play a part, breaking off, or flattening the growth
pattern of a tree.

I think where the problem lies for me is that every time someone tries to define and put
into terms what a definition of what a tree really does in nature, I can find ten examples to dispute
their very argument. This is not that they are not correct in what they are saying...
Quite the contrary... I think in their neck of the woods, this is more than likely exactly what
happens, but nature has a funny way of not really adhering to set rules, or guidelines.


In the mountains of China, and in their neck of the woods where Bonsai was actually
created, the trees grow a little different then what you have suggested. They do in fact do
all of what you suggested does not happen in a natural environment. Their apexes do actually
bend over and they do have downward sloping primary and secondary apex branches. So, much so
that they are literally the Bonsai, that most who say they prefer a more natural looking tree are always
saying doesn't look natural... and yet here it is... what then could be more natural ?

People just didn't start doing this a particular way just because... they were actually doing as you suggested
observing nature and trying to replicate it.

 

[GrimLore]

Thanks John! Also liked the video on the BC with the same person. I disagree and agree with Stacy but not in a bad way. I am pretty certain for instance that John has many years of viewing natural Bald Cypress in his area and depicts "natural" that way. There is one large Bald Cypress that grows on a Nature trail here. It looks nothing like a Southern BC. It actually looks like the worlds softest Christmas tree. Those pictures you showed in China is what "they" see everyday, not what I see... Natural to you may indeed be far different then it is to me and it should be Nothing wrong with either one of us of think honest, just different by "nature"

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Thanks John! Also liked the video on the BC with the same person. I disagree and agree with Stacy but not in a bad way. I am pretty certain for instance that John has many years of viewing natural Bald Cypress in his area and depicts "natural" that way. There is one large Bald Cypress that grows on a Nature trail here. It looks nothing like a Southern BC. It actually looks like the worlds softest Christmas tree. Those pictures you showed in China is what "they" see everyday, not what I see... Natural to you may indeed be far different then it is to me and it should be Nothing wrong with either one of us of think honest, just different by "nature"

Grimmy

I agree. I am not disagreeing with what John is doing, and I think this is an
Awesome way of styling the apex of a tree. I was merely disagreeing with his
Statement that trees do not have their apex bent down in nature.
My argument being that for every rule put out there for what happens in
Nature, one can easily find the opposite to be true just the same.
Which goes back to my initial argument of there not being a right or
Wrong way often when doing bonsai.

 

[johng]

There are always exceptions...maybe its just my old eyes but I don't think the pics you posted prove or disprove my point...you can't even see the branches in question...but I am not arguing that there are not infinite exceptions in the natural world. Of course your "hostile" environments will always change the "natural" shape of trees. I clearly stated that mature natural trees were the basis of my observations. Tortured trees, and even ancient trees, are a genre of bonsai where nearly anything can go and the torture is more likely to dictate the form, as opposed to natural growth tendencies.

Like many species, Bald Cypress tend to have a form of their own, but even that is extremely variable over their range.

I can't seem to find a single pic, or example in nature, of a mature natural deciduous tree with a single trunk line from roots to top...yet we all have them in our collections! Even in the mature tall Southern pines...a single line will rise for 80-90% of the height of the tree and then it will spread into multiple ascending branches at the crown. Obviously the spruce or Christmas tree form is the exception with conifers. But, in the end, it is observations like these that are changing my trees.


The only thing that I know for sure, is that the longer I am at this hobby, the more my tastes, practices, and trees continue to evolve...hopefully for the better. I see the same transitions/shifts in the members here as well

John

 

[johng]

Which goes back to my initial argument of there not being a right or
Wrong way often when doing bonsai.

The only wrong way is the way that leads to taking backwards steps in the future...which I am pretty sure was Rob's whole point...do it in a way which can evolve and be improved over time.

John

 

[GrimLore]

The only wrong way is the way that leads to taking backwards steps in the future...which I am pretty sure was Rob's whole point...do it in a way which can evolve and be improved over time.

John

In that video I noticed a bit was left "just in case" the tree did not respond as expected. That is a difficult discipline to teach yourself but SO valuable.

Grimmy

 

[Eric Group]

Well, I have my day off today and this morning found a bit of time to work on the apex of a Juniper I started styling this Spring. Took a few shots of the apex before wiring, a shot or two after, and then a pic with the styled tree sitting next to the tree that was it's identical twin prior to the repot/ initial styling it got this Spring just for context... Obviousltpy this guy has a long way to go, needs to fill in some more, I am working to get the back budding that is happening at a pretty fast rate... Not sure which a tyle exactly you would call this as far as the apex is concerned, somewhere between the T bar branch and what John and others were talking about with using multiple branches- I combined about three branches to make the little crown it has now, and once it fills in should look a lot better! I guess you could say the front branch is similar to a? Shape too...

I definitely won't have time to work on all the trees I wanted to today, but- despite the ugly pics- I think this is an improvement for this tree and should get better and better as it fills in.

 

[A Random User]

There are always exceptions...maybe its just my old eyes but I don't think the pics you posted prove or disprove my point...you can't even see the branches in question...but I am not arguing that there are not infinite exceptions in the natural world. Of course your "hostile" environments will always change the "natural" shape of trees. I clearly stated that mature natural trees were the basis of my observations. Tortured trees, and even ancient trees, are a genre of bonsai where nearly anything can go and the torture is more likely to dictate the form, as opposed to natural growth tendencies.

Like many species, Bald Cypress tend to have a form of their own, but even that is extremely variable over their range.

I can't seem to find a single pic, or example in nature, of a mature natural deciduous tree with a single trunk line from roots to top...yet we all have them in our collections! Even in the mature tall Southern pines...a single line will rise for 80-90% of the height of the tree and then it will spread into multiple ascending branches at the crown. Obviously the spruce or Christmas tree form is the exception with conifers. But, in the end, it is observations like these that are changing my trees.


The only thing that I know for sure, is that the longer I am at this hobby, the more my tastes, practices, and trees continue to evolve...hopefully for the better. I see the same transitions/shifts in the members here as well

John

In the first pic posted one can clearly see branches at the apex that have been bent down.

As far as the rest of what you have posted, I would agree with.
The last statement of evolving I think would be an honest assessment,
But then I would have to question what are we evolving too ?

I am all for the style of a tree from a very natural way... for I have alot
Of trees that have been styled in such a way. But, what I don't like personally
About the evolution that you speak of is the snobby attitude that is seeming
To follow the movement... the view that if a tree is not styled in a certain way
That it is somehow wrong, and that those who do style in this way don't really
Know what they are doing.

I just don't see the need for it, and feel it is kinda pompous... I personally
Appreciate all styles and forms of Bonsai. I respect and understand their reasoning.
Yes, there are things that I don't like, but I usually try and argue on the merits of
What would make the style the artist is trying to do better. If one approached me
With a pom pom tree I would be like, "yikes", I would ask them questions and
Try a determine if the style was intentional, or merely through a lack of understanding.
If I found it was intentional, and even though it might not be a design I would
Personally pick to do, I would help them in designing the best pom pom tree possible.
And who knows, I might even learn a thing or two in the process.
Reason I would do this us because I understand that whether or not I like these trees,
I am willing to accept and appreciate that somewhere in the world of Bonsai they do
Play a role.

So, I think the view of evolving is debatable... from where I sit, I actually see the world
Of bonsai being taken away from the natural and more to an artistic extreme. Where folks
Are taking trees in a direction where they are choosing planting angles that are just mind
Boggling... you wonder how they are going to even put it in a pot. or where they have ignored
All the you can't do that rules and their tree is full of bar branching, like the Taiwanese are
Doing and it makes me happy!!! Because they didn't argue over potential problems...
Instead they created an awesome tree. Understanding very well, that in nature a tree is full
Of potential problems and this is what happens... they tell the story of how they deal in, and
Along side nature. Real trees are full of the very imperfections we keep taking out of the tree,
And without much sense keep arguing about. They just do it because.

Sorry, my last paragraph was not to clear, so I felt it needed edit...
Where I was going with this is that in nature anything can and does often happen.
So they have concerned themselves less about what happens in nature, and
Are just doing... instead their main priority being not the issues of the
Tree but instead the look if the tree.

 

[A Random User]

Well, I have my day off today and this morning found a bit of time to work on the apex of a Juniper I started styling this Spring. Took a few shots of the apex before wiring, a shot or two after, and then a pic with the styled tree sitting next to the tree that was it's identical twin prior to the repot/ initial styling it got this Spring just for context... Obviousltpy this guy has a long way to go, needs to fill in some more, I am working to get the back budding that is happening at a pretty fast rate... Not sure which a tyle exactly you would call this as far as the apex is concerned, somewhere between the T bar branch and what John and others were talking about with using multiple branches- I combined about three branches to make the little crown it has now, and once it fills in should look a lot better! I guess you could say the front branch is similar to a? Shape too...

I definitely won't have time to work on all the trees I wanted to today, but- despite the ugly pics- I think this is an improvement for this tree and should get better and better as it fills in.

Thanks for posting, please keep us informed on its progress.

 

[GrimLore]

American Bonsai, Australian Bonsai, European Bonsai are just a few that are evolving into a different art form as they should be... Just my observation and opinion. I like it for one main reason and many other reasons. It is becoming "Individual" in many ways opening up a never ending artistic expression - not "Cookie Cutter".

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

American Bonsai, Australian Bonsai, European Bonsai are just a few that are evolving into a different art form as they should be... Just my observation and opinion. I like it for one main reason and many other reasons. It is becoming "Individual" in many ways opening up a never ending artistic expression - not "Cookie Cutter".

Grimmy

For me personally, I would attribute this to folks following their own path, and not listening to
Traditional set values, but instead finding new ways of doing things. I sure that when these folks
Like Walter Paul started doing things his way, he heard every reason on earth for not doing what
He is doing from the status quo... but look where it has progressed the art since...
Just look at the discussion here still to this day about Boon's Soil mix...

Which for the record one will easily find that with the Chinese have been doing a more natural tree
Design for centuries, so Walter is nothing new. And Boon will clearly tell you that his soil mix has it's
Origins in Japan... that in fact it really wasn't anything new, just different from what everyone else
Around them was doing.

 

[A Random User]

Took a break from my chores to take some pics of a tree I was working
on last night, removing bigger, older leaves to help get some light into.
and promote back budding.

I forgot I had done this same procedure that I described on it. It is a narrow
leaf buttonwood... I know, you styled a deciduous tree in such a fashion ???
I am not sure if it is easily viewable but I brought what was at the time the apex
down and around... as has been described in my illustrations. I wired out the various
branches in a radiating fashion. I have since decided to change the angle of the tree,
so this will no longer be the apex, but that's another story. This tree had a trunk chop
done on it, and I brought one of the branches right up against it, to disguise the chop.
It will as it grows, and matures more than likely attach itself to the chopped area.
This branch obviously is a bar branch, seeing that there is another coming off in the
direction opposite it. The other side will be removed when and if it begins to cause a
problem, and it will be replaced with growth from another branch.

Until this time, I am currently just forcing back buds to grow in this area. B-woods
are tougher to do this with, so it may take some time, If this was a juniper it would
already be filled in and growing strong.

So, take from it what you will, I am sure this will just look manmade and contrived to
some and just an easy way of doing it. To me, I actually thought it created interest
to an other wise dull tree, and solved the problem of how to hide a trunk chop that will
never heal over anytime in my lifetime. I don't see all the horrible problems that will
arise in the future from me doing this as has been suggested.

Side note... another thing that I am currently doing with the tree is actually letting the
wires on purpose scar the tree. So, the wire scars are deliberate. They are being done
because with this variety of Buttonwood, they do not grow a very heavy old looking trunk
and branches. Their normal makeup of bark is very smooth, and unfortunately just does
not have as much of a nice old texture of those of a normal B-wood. So there, one more
thing I have done that is manmade.

Hope you enjoy and thanks for viewing. I can post some pics of the entire tree if one is
interested. I just felt I didn't need to at the time, but would be happy to do so.

EDIT... I added the last pic to better show what had been done.

 

[october]

The only wrong way is the way that leads to taking backwards steps in the future...which I am pretty sure was Rob's whole point...do it in a way which can evolve and be improved over time.

John

Yes, having to work on something for years to make it nice is one thing. However, having to take things back a couple of steps or even back to square one, can be discouraging.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

Yes, having to work on something for years to make it nice is one thing. However, having to take things back a couple of steps or even back to square one, can be discouraging.

Rob

I know what you mean, except I don't ...
But, repeating it over and over again, will I guess make
It come true...

 

[Poink88]

Yes, having to work on something for years to make it nice is one thing. However, having to take things back a couple of steps or even back to square one, can be discouraging.

Rob

I agree.

I know what you mean, except I don't ...
But, repeating it over and over again, will I guess make
It come true...

It doesn't...but his statements may help others know better what they are getting into should they decide to try the technique.

 

[A Random User]

I agree.


It doesn't...but his statements may help others know better what they are getting into should they decide to try the technique.

Perhaps... but what is being missed is that this could not be
Just left at the original statement, and now has been progressed
To that of just trying to prove me wrong.

There has been no evidence provided, that regards to actual facts,
Just a diagram voicing an opinion. I as well can do the same, and point
Out just as many flaws with the technique he has suggested, and I still
Will not be anymore wrong than he is. Plain and simple.

And you and everyone else here at the forum can disagree with my
Suggestion and you still will not be correct.Sorry, but as Rob himself
Said, you are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts.

 

[GrimLore]

Perhaps... but what is being missed is that this could not be
Just left at the original statement, and now has been progressed
To that of just trying to prove me wrong.

There has been no evidence provided, that regards to actual facts,
Just a diagram voicing an opinion. I as well can do the same, and point
Out just as many flaws with the technique he has suggested, and I still
Will not be anymore wrong than he is. Plain and simple.

And you and everyone else here at the forum can disagree with my
Suggestion and you still will not be correct.Sorry, but as Rob himself
Said, you are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts.

K... So when we going to get back to the Thread Subject No offense intended - just seeing this take a wrong turn where it does not need to. It's getting to the edge of how can you get lost in the woods when there(presumably) is only one Yellow Brick Road. Everyone here is an Artist and everyone has a different concept and road... It is all good

Grimmy

 

[october]

Perhaps... but what is being missed is that this could not be
Just left at the original statement, and now has been progressed
To that of just trying to prove me wrong.

There has been no evidence provided, that regards to actual facts,
Just a diagram voicing an opinion. I as well can do the same, and point
Out just as many flaws with the technique he has suggested, and I still
Will not be anymore wrong than he is. Plain and simple.

And you and everyone else here at the forum can disagree with my
Suggestion and you still will not be correct.Sorry, but as Rob himself
Said, you are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts.

Of course, there can be issues with apexes no matter how they are structured. Many trees are apically dominant, so one must be prepared to handle the most growth in that area.

As far as actual visual proof. I have delt with this on about 3 trees during my bonsai. 10 years ago, I bought a pre styled tree. The apex was created by swooping a branch. It looked very nice. It held up for about 4 years, then it ran it's course and could not be pruned further. I created a whole new apex. Just the one branch wired up. It took about 2 years to get the new apex going.

The second one was on my straight trunk bunjin. That one also needed a new apex. It took me about 2-3 years to regrow one. Another tree was an arborvitae. However, that tree did not survive. If I look in my archives, I can probably find the pics of the trees with the old apexes. I think everyone has made good points and the thread has turned to a friendly an informative note. If you would like me to post the pics. I will gladly do it. Not in the context of see, I told you, but if you are curious and would like to see them. It might take a little while to find them, since we are talking about going back about 7-9 years.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

By the way Dario, this is the second time you have agreed with
Rob, on the exact same statement, you posted that my technique
Is a "dirty fast way of doing it", insinuating I am incorrect and
Wrong in my technique and I am just curious how one with going
In 3 years experience in bonsai, could of gained such an insight ?

You haven't answered my question that I put forth after your initial
Statement. I can only assume because you do think what Neli showed
Happening in Japan as incorrect, but don't want to put it out there.
Because the individual doing it is from Japan, who clearly knows a thing
Or two about bonsai.

Yet, here you are with such authority... throwing insults as though you know.
Baffles the mind... listen, you are more than happy to come to my threads
And disgree with me, you and the others. But, I have not once for the record,
Disrespected your views or opinions on this thread, and a demand you do
The same.